Got enough 1911's? That's an oxymoron!

[TMan]

Should you not know what an oxymoron is - look it up! ;D

Anyhow, I was range officer this morning, and I got to shoot one of the member's Desert Eagle chambered in 44 Magnum. Six rounds, no problems. The next person to shoot it: six rounds, six jams. I can't say all my rounds were in the center ring, but...

So, after a stop at the military gun supply for 7.62x54R ammo, I was thirsty, and since the local gunsmith's shop has a coke machine...

After looking around at used/new guns, I didn't see anything that I wanted. I mentioned to the owner that I was disappointed that he didn't have anything that I wanted. He showed me a M1A that I could hardly hold up. No sale.

He then showed me a Beretta Stampede, which looked like a carbine, but it had the color-casing that looks like vomit. Were it not for that, I would have snatched it up. It is a limited edition, and there were only 400 of them made. It isn't even shown on their web-site. (At least I couldn't find it.)

It was raining Texas style, so I wasn't in too much of a hurry to leave. At this point the owner opened up a cardboard box that was just delivered. He started pulling out handguns.

One plastic box said: "Rock Island Armory", and "Made in Philippines". I asked: "What is this?" ( I recognized the Rock Island Armory name from somewhere).

He opened the box and it contained a 1911 in a plastic bag. The phone rang. While I was waiting, I was staring at the gun in the bag; it was very oily. He got a rag, removed the gun and we were examining it. I asked him about the trigger, and he tried it and said it wasn't bad. I tried it; he was right.

I then asked him what it would sell for. He said: "$350". Hmmm, $350 for a 1911. That is less than the Springfield Armory's cheapest 1911.

I then held it up and asked why they didn't put a front sight on it. We had a laugh.

Why am I going through all these details? You all know that I walked out of the store with the gun. I'll let you know how it shoots when I get around to taking it to the range.

["DoubleAction"]

TMan; There is also Rock River Arms, which is of the Custom 1911s, and then there was the Rock Island Government Arsenal. Would the Armscor 1911 also be "Made in Philippines" ?

[TMan]

My impression is that Rock Island Armory (RIA) is the name of the company in the US that is doing the importing. Sort of like Sigarms for Sig Sauer.

The gun was made by:

Twin Pines, Inc.
No. 4 Liwayway St.
San Juan, Metro Manila
Philippines

Make no mistake about it - this is the Jennings of 1911's.

The fit of the components is very good, but the gauge of metal doesn't seem to be very high. As far as its strength - I don't know. It may be that it was built to the original 1911A1 specifications I don't know. However, I do know that it is a Series 70, and doesn't have the locking crap in the mainspring assembly that the Springfield Amrory "GI" version has.

It will be interesting to contrast the two guns and see which one is the best. Accuracy will be difficult since I can't see the front sight on either one of them. My gut feeling is going to be that the Springfield is going to lose, but we shall find out.

I think it is more fun contrasting two low-end products than it would be contrasting two top-end products, but we all know I'm a little crazy.

[5ontarget]

tman said:

I think it is more fun contrasting two low-end products than it would be contrasting two top-end products....

Yeah, and you get to shoot 2+guns for the price of one. What a deal!!

I'm more likely to have one of the intermediate and/or lower end models as they fit in my budget. Stinking money pit I live in, really cuts into my gun budget That and my kid, what, with the food and clothes and toys, sheesh. When I was your age... drifting off into a misty dream sequence

Maybe I could sell a kidney

[ron]

I looked at a Rock Island 1911 at the gun shop, but there also was a worked Springfield Armory Champion there and the Rock Island was unimpressive next to the other gun.

I'll likely get a 1911 sometime this summer.

Ron

["DoubleAction"]

A couple of years ago, while shooting at the range, a friend stopped by to drop off some ammunition for me. After he left, he returned for something he had forgot to pick up for himself. While he was there, I was closing a deal at the used counter. He has had an assortment of handguns but he has only ever owned one 1911; a matter of fact, it was the same guy who first showed me a Colt Officer's ACP back in '85. after he bought one. He has long since sold that pistol, and often talks about it, but has never owned any variation of the 1911 since.
Back to the Used Counter; While we were standing there, he spotted a Rock Island Commander Size version of the 1911, for $200. I had passed him almost $400. for the ammunition, and knew he had the money to buy this pistol. The counter guy, at the time was one who had been very generous, and when my friend began trying to talk him down on the Rock Island, after I told him it was a fair price, the counter guy told him he would spend that much on a frame alone.
I can see trying to talk a price down on some pistols, but for those under $200., I was embarrassed to be around this guy. I told him if he bought it that I would smooth it up for him, and install some parts I already had if he needed. But, he came out with trying to low ball an already low priced gun.

[TMan]

Embarrassed? I know the feeling. My wife thinks she has to barter know on everything now. If something costs 50 RMB (about $6 US), I'm ashamed to try to get the price down.

On some of my Mil-Surp rifles, costing over $200, I've asked if he can do anything on the price. In the case of a $109 rifle, I'd be embarrassed to ask them if they could come down on the price.

One place we went to in Xi'an they told us that for New Year's they had a special with 10% off everything. It was a really big store, and we saw a lot of stuff we wanted. We told the saleswoman that we wanted to "consider" some items because we weren't sure if we wanted them or not. So she sat them out on the counter.

We were considering quite a few, and she told us that she could do a 20% discount. My wife told her it wasn't enough, so she went to her manager, came back and said they could do 40%. Still not good enough, my wife sent her back to her manager to tell him 50%. He walked over to us, saw all the stuff on the counter we were considering and agreed to the 50%.

I would like to say that we only took a couple of the items,... Sigh

["DoubleAction"]

Nothing wrong with trying to negotiate a price; I've been quite successful in coming up with unusual methods of table tactics.
One method came to me, on the spur of the moment, involving my Colt Officer's ACP. After seeing the pistol, I asked to look at it and told the seller I would like to have it but I did not have that much money on me. He then asked how much I did have, which told me he was a little anxious for a sell. I pulled out my wallet, saying "I don't Know, Let's See". I then proceeded to count out some fifties, and twenties, until I had a small stack green in front of him, but I was still over a hundred dollars short of the asking price. With that, he accepted what was in front of him. I have another saying, "A bird in the Hand, is Worth Two in the Bush". I felt what he recieved was more than a fair price for the pistol, and I'm sure he felt the same way. It was also the only Officer's ACP I could find during an entire week of asking around.

[5ontarget]

DA,
I've done something very similar at a gunshow. I saw the price on the gun, went over a few isles, separated my money, and put what I wanted to show the owner in my wallet, the rest went in my front pocket. I went back to the owner and did the same thing you did.

On a new car a while back, I faxed/emailed all the dealers that had the car I wanted within a 1.5hour drive (it was around 12-15dealers) telling them I would by a car in two days from the dealer with the lowest price. I got a couple of dealers in a bidding war, and came out with a great deal, and I didn't have to spend hours on the phone, or worse, in the dealer showroom.


Tman,

Did you ever wonder what the importer actually paid for these Mil-Surps, before shipping them. Think about those cheapo Turkish mausers that were going for $75 retail. The importer obviously bought them for less than that...Say $50 not more than $60, including shipping to get them to the US. So what was the initial purchase price from Turkey, per gun, prior to shipping, and import/export taxes?

[TMan]

5OT, actually I haven't bought a Turkish Mauser yet. They have a ton of them here, but they are really in poor condition. I've seen pictures on web-sites of the Turkish Mausers and they look great. Makes me glad that I'm paying MSRP+, but I have a chance to look over carefully before buying. It is called +Handpicked+

I had wanted to buy my wife a BMW 540, but she had it in her head, mostly from listening to her brothers, that Mercedes were better.

We went to the BMW dealership, but they only had a couple of 528's in stock, but they said they could order a 540. She test drove, wasn't too impressed. Then she saw the 840 in the showroom and said: "You can buy me that". Well, they had an 850 outside too, both were black, but the 850 was $17,000 more. It had the 12 cylinder engine and a phone.

We left without the 840, which I liked better because the 8 cylinder engine was a lot newer technology and I heard a lot of bad things about the 12 cylinder engine.

Next we went to the Mercedes dealership. I don't remember which particular models we were looking at, but they were in the 80 to 90k price range, and weren't as nice on the inside as the BMW was. I pointed out the nice walnut paneling in the showroom, how the salesmen had beautiful wood desks. I asked my wife who she thought was paying for all of that. I don't think she ever thought about that. The BMW showroom wasn't cheap, but it was about the same as a Ford or Chevy showroom.

Where I've been buying Mil-Surp guns is a large store with a lot of inventory, and a fairly large staff. All the inventory, all the square-footage in the floor-space, all the staff... Somewhere the money is coming to pay for all of that. Wonder where - could it be from me?

Oh, forgot to mention I went back a couple of days later and bought the 840. That was in 97, the last year they made them, it was a decision I haven't regretted. We still have the car, and no intentions of ever replacing it (certainly not with a Mercedes).

[TBT]

I've never once haggled on a price in a gun shop. I thought that was reserved for buying cars and boats lol. They really come down on price? I seriously always thought that was set in stone ... like buying something at Walmart you know ...

[ron]

The only time I haggled is when a shop had used gun for a higher price that what I could have purchased it for new. It wasn't really even a haggle. It was a statement of shock when I said "You've got to be kidding! I could buy this for less, new." The salesman then, with some embarassment, told me that the price was just a starting point for bargaining.

My favorite FFL will show you what he paid for a gun and add 15% to that cost. There are some very low price guns that he may add 25% to. No hassle, no haggle. He makes what he wants and you get the gun. He's just an honest guy trying to make an honest buck. It kills me to know that he plans to sell or close the shop soon (taking another job).

Ron

[TMan]

TBT, it kind of depends on what their mark-up is, in addition to the price, on whether or not I try to get a better price. Where I shop the most, only has a 7% markup, and I wouldn't dream of asking them to come down on the price. Usually, if it is an item that has been in their inventory for awhile, they will let me have it for their cost.

I also do the same thing in jewelry stores. Sometimes I buy, sometimes I don't. Tomorrow is the 27th, but being February, I don't think they will come down too much. If it were March, I might do better, but what I'm looking for might no longer be there. In fact, it may have been sold already. It is a string of South-Sea pearls. We were in the store at the end of December, but she wasn't sure she wanted them. They are multiple color pearls, and are as close to perfect as you could get. (I have 20/15 vision 6" from my nose, and they looked flawless. I have a 16x loupe and I'd want to look at them with it). They came down 10%, and I would have bought them, but my wife didn't want to spend that much money at the time. (We are talking more than a Wilson Combat Classic Super Grade). However, since then she has mentioned them numerous times. Tman can take a hint, if it has been repeated enough times. ;D

Some places expect you to barter. China is very much that way in the markets. They have a price marked on an item. You show an interest in it and they grab a calculator, but in a price, multiply it by 80 or 90 percent and show you the price they want for it.

On a previous trip there was a shop over in the fake markets (where they sell Rolex, Gucci, Cartier, Chanel, etc. knockoffs) where they had some wooden ships and they had some little half ships mounted in frames along with samples of knots. I kind of wanted one.

This trip I found the shop and went in looking at all the stuff he had, and then at the one I was interested in, I asked: "How much?". (Keep in mind that there are 8 RMB to a dollar.) He typed in 350 RMB. With much emotion, I shook my head and he handed me the calculator. I typed in 100 RMB. He beat me in emotion and type in 330 RMB. Not wavering, I typed in 100. Again big emotion and he typed 320. I started to walk out of the store. He grabbed my arm and typed in 300. I pulled away and with much shaking of my head walked out of the store.

I walked around for awhile and then went back to the shop. I looked again at what he had on display, and pretended I couldn't decide between two different ones. I asked the price of the second one, and got 330 RMB. Going back to the original, I said to him: "Ok, what is the lowest price you will take for this one." He replied: "OK, last price - no more price - finished". I shook my head yes, willing to pay 200 RMB. He typed in 150 RMB. I shook my head yes, and he started wrapping it up with string for me to carry it (after putting it in its cardboard box).

I handed him the 150 RMB, and then a 20 RMB note and said: "This is for you." He was shocked. He suddenly said: "No go, wait here". He then went and got a business card which he handed me and said: "You my friend. You need anything, you call me and pointed to his cell-phone number".

The previous trip we were buying some chop-sticks (art type). He wanted 80 RMB. My wife told him 20 RMB. They argued a lot and she went up to 25 RMB. He wanted 27. She started to walk away and he said: "Ok, 25 RMB". I took out the money and she started looking at something in the shop across from his. He told me: "I no make money. At 27 I make, at 25, I no make." I handed him the 25 and then two 1 RMB coins, and put my finger to my lips and said: "Shhh" and pointed toward my wife. Talk about one happy Chinese man - he was thrilled. He have me a really big handshake.

When I came back from Vietnam, I still had 9 months left, so I got another assignment. I mentioned to the pastor of our church that I wasn't doing that well because my wife didn't have a license to work in New York. We talked for awhile, and he called me a couple of days later and said the man that had a TV repair shop around the corner from the church wanted to interview me. I worked there for several years doing chassis work for him. In other words, if it wasn't a bad tube, it came in the back for me to work on. I worked strictly on a flat fee for each TV, stereo, or radio that I fixed. However, on Saturday I also helped out in the showroom if I was needed.

I did all the finances and tax returns for the business, so I knew what was going on. This was a personal thing because the owner was like a father to me. There were some months that he really had a cash flow problem, and he sold sets he had on the floor at a loss. In doing so, I dealt with some people I would have like to have shot. I don't think they really knew how great a deal that they got.

My point in telling you all this is that I want the person that I'm buying from to make a profit. On the other hand, I don't want them making a killing on me. I'd hate to be thought of as a sucker. I seldom pay full price for anything of high value. The exception was the Z8, which at the time I bought it was selling on the secondary market for $40,000 more than MSRP, and I paid MSRP for it.

My gunsmith, who I bought the RIA 1911 from, is important to me, and I want him to stay in business. I also know of some of the health problems that his workers have. I want them employed. I don't want him to go out of business. This isn't just selfish. I've never met his wife, but I met his 11 year old daughter. It wasn't love at first sight, but after talking to her, I quickly realized this was the girl that I'd like to some day be married to my 14 year old grandson.

If it makes you happy to buy something at MSRP, than do so. If you get joy and satisfaction from getting something less than MSRP, then barter away.

Tman has spoken... or the Knob Creek bourbon has spoken - not sure which. ;D

[TBT]

Knob Creek bourbon ... hah ... wow, you can melt metal or peel the paint off a 30 year old footlocker with that man.

Whew ... your more man than I brother! ;D

[TMan]

Took the RIA to the range today and put 50 rounds through it. I was very pleased with the accuracy of this inexpensive gun (notice I didn't say cheap). However, I did have two failures to feed. The bullet wasn't really jammed, it just wasn't going up the ramp. All it took was a slight touch to the slide and it sailed right into the chamber.

I pulled the last Shoot-N-C target and took it into the gunsmith's to show him how well it shot. I'm not quite sure how, but I ended up leaving with another Winchester 94, the last one he had. He came down a little on the price, but not much. I need to sleep more at night.

(Oh, picked up the pearls on the way home too - they still had them and gave me the price I wanted).

[5ontarget]

what caliber did you pick this time for your 94?

["DoubleAction"]

TMan; Just out of curosity, I wonder what Wilson Combat's response would be if you gave them a call to inquire about pricing, on having them do the upgrades on your R.I.A. pistol to that of Super Grade Custom ? ;D

[TMan]

5OT, there wasn't much choice - all they had was one left. It is 357 Magnum. I also bought an AGI video on the 94 because the owner's manual had no disassembly information, nor did I have any books that explained how to disassemble it. I'm really going to know how to use Simple Green.

DA, never pi$$ someone off whose services you might need someday. This is one "suggestion" of yours that I will not be taking.

Oh, for any of your following my pearl acquisitions: got them, and the colors are far superior to any we found in China. I also got the price I wanted. Reminds me - got to go put them in the safe.

[MLB]

I can't wait. TMan's going to the safe. No telling what long forgotten handgun he'll find in there! I'm still hoping he'll unearth a long lost P5C.

[TMan]

Wrong safe.