Decockers

["DoubleAction"]

I saw this response on another forum in regards to the Sig Sauer decocking system. I wanted to respond but I'm not welcomed on that site.

The only decockers I trust are the ones that move the firing pin out of the way of the hammer. Other than that, no way am I dropping a decocker on a live round.

Idiots like that is why I stay off such forums, and they're not just a forum, they're the largest gun rights activist organization in the State of Georgia.

I'll post my response here.

I've talked and responded to this topic every time I see it posted anywhere; this is why. The Decocker system on the Sig Sauers safely lowers the hammer, while disengaging the sear. While the hammer is being lowered by the decockers, the firing pin block remains in place.

One unsafe method for lowering the hammer on the Sig Sauers would be to release the hammer by the use of the trigger and lowering the hammer manually. This method disengages the firing pin block, allowing the hammer to rest in an unsafe position on the, now, freed firing pin. A blow to the hammer could cause an untentional discharge. Not only that, by lowering the hammer, using the thumb and pulling back on the trigger, if the hammer slips it can cause the hammer to drop on the fire pin, which in turn would cause a discharge.

These incorporated safety features on the Sig Sauer's lock work system is for a reason and it is a primary part of the manual of arms for these pistols. Any dummy who thinks he or she should reinvent their own methods for bypassing these incorporated safety features, should have no business near firearms.

[Callahan]

I remember reading that it was highly dangerous to bypass the decocker system by manually releasing the hammer while restraining it with the thumb and activating the trigger.

I always do it the proper way, but I also point the pistol in a safe direction. (Partly because, despite my confidence in the system, I'm mentally prepared for a loud report!)

["DoubleAction"]

Me Too, Callahan. It really burns me a little to read the kind of posts where others only encourages the spread of their own ignorance. What makes it worse is the fact that they're discussing it on a gun forum, on the issues of the proper uses and safe firearm handling, and nobody comes forward to correct them on it.

[TMan]

I like a decocker the way it is implemented on the Sig's. What I don't like is a decocker that is integrated into the safety the way it is done on the Ruger P90.

The range I shoot at all the time now has a rule that you never put down a loaded gun. Therefore, I haven't used a decocker in years.

The last time I used one was when I was shooting at Bass Pro shops. I don't remember exactly what was going on, but for some reason I applied the safety and the hammer dropped. The was the first time I'd ever put the safety on when there was a round in the chamber. The hammer fell and I about filled my diaper. I actually thought there was something wrong with the gun. I had to read the owners manual in order to discover that it really worked that way.

So why do semi-auto's need decockers and revolvers don't?

[MLB]

My favorite decocker story involves the Stoeger Cougar. I was looking it over at the gun counter and after (double checking the chamber and) engaging the safety, went to test it by pulling the trigger. Imagine my surprise when the hammer fell when barely touching the trigger!

The counter guy seemed as surprised as I was and tried the same thing with the same result. Turns out that the hammer was supposed to fall upon engaging the safety (like the P90), but it was a bit sticky. Touching the hammer allowed it to fall as it should have.

It still left a poor impression on me though.

["DoubleAction"]

So why do semi-auto's need decockers and revolvers don't?

Since I'm thinking about double action revolvers at the moment, I'll talk about that one.

The double action revolver hammer need not be cocked to the rear while loading; the semi autos, on the other hand, require the slide to be open while loading which also cocks the hammer.

The hammers on double action revolvers never actually requires manually cocking the hammer to the rear in order to load it or shoot it. If the hammer is ever lowered on a loaded chamber, the lock work of the double action revolvers has a firing pin transfer bar which blocks the firing pin from resting on the primer cap. Same method as the transfer bar on the single action Rugers.

This is where the safe handling of firearms comes into play, in knowing how function meets with safety.

When decocking the hammer on a double action revolver, with a loaded chamber, one needs to begin by first placing the thumb on the spur of the hammer, with fingers clear of the trigger and trigger guard area. Then, after cocking the hammer toward the back strap, hold the hammer while then placing the index finger on the trigger, and press the trigger only enough to free the hammer from it's cocked position, and take the finger off the trigger while slowly lowering the hammer ( usually about half way through the process of lowering the hammer). The trigger should never be pulled to the rear during the entire process of lowering of the hammer unless you're firing the weapon, this will defeat the transfer bar mechanism in the lock work. With enough practice and time, this will become second nature on unloaded revolvers, as well as loaded revolvers; as we all know, All Firearms are Loaded.

This can be practiced and seen by holding the unloaded revolver against a back lit area to where you can see between the frame and the cylinder of the firing pin area. If you lower the hammer while holding the trigger to the rear, you will see the firing pin protrude through the frame. If you let off the trigger before the hammer to fully lowered, you should not see the firing pass through the frame.

Although Bill Ruger contributed to the development of the transfer bar on the Single Actions, the Double Actions were already using this system.

Are you now ready to know why Decockers are not on the Single Action Revolvers ?

To begin with, revolvers were primarily in use at a time when professionals took a a more professional approach into the handling of their hardware.

Many of the methods for handling firearms were passed down through generations of experience.

The lock work of the Colt Single Action six shooters have never changed in the way they have manufactured in over 100 years, and neither has the method by which they are to be decocked.

No gun slinger of the six shooter is worth his salt until he learns how to properly load and decock his Colt Single Action Army. I'll try to make this quick.

After checking and rechecking the cylinder to make sure the firearm is unloaded.

Place only five cartridges, preferably Dummy Rounds of Dummy Snap Caps off to the side; No more than five.

First begin by bringing the hammer to half cocked, loading position, start by loading one round in the first chamber, then skip chamber 2, rotate to chamber 3 and load, rotate to chamber 4 and load, rotate to chamber 5 and load, rotate to chamber 6 and load. Close loading gate, cock hammer to rear, press trigger, and slowly lower the hammer. The hammer should now be resting on that empty chamber.

If the hammer is cocked, without firing, and needs to be brought back around to the empty chamber, the hammer needs to be cocked six times in order to bring the empty chamber to be rested again on the empty chamber. One can practice this by using dummy cartridges and a long pencil, eraser first, down the barrel to check the position of the cylinder.

Although many handgun manufacturers have made great strides and attempts to develop idiot proof systems for a one size fits all society, we are still forced to back track a time when people actually learned from their mistakes ( if they lived so long) and the mistakes of others; I prefer the learning process of the later.

[TMan]

...If the hammer is cocked, without firing, and needs to be brought back around to the empty chamber, the hammer needs to be cocked six times in order to bring the empty chamber to be rested again on the empty chamber...

And just how do you go about cocking it six times without pulling the trigger?

My thoughts about the double-action were just to flip open the cylinder and dump out the rounds. My real concern is with the single action revolvers, and I apologize for not making that clear.

When I'm Range Officer (RO) I let people know when I'm going to call a cease-fire (so people can go downrange on the rifle positions to replace their targets). I've been there shooting when other RO's just ring the bell. When the bell rings, you are to unload your weapon, and put a flag in the chamber so the RO can see it is unloaded, and then step back behind the red-line. We have had a rules change that says: "When the bell rings, continue to shoot what you have in the cylinder/magazine until the gun is empty". The exception would be if the RO calls "Cease Fire, Cease Fire, Cease Fire."

Although some of the SA revolvers have a transfer bar, some of them don't. My arms are not long enough to currently look at mine in order to say which are which, but it is the one without the transfer bar that concerns me. Since I first started shooting them, I always loaded 5 even though the gun has a transfer bar. I like loading and counting to 5 no matter what I'm shooting anyhow (we have a rule that you can only load 5 rounds in semi-auto rifles).

I remember one time when I had just loaded a SA revolver when the bell rang. I pulled the cylinder pin, popped out the cylinder, and stuck a flag in the chamber. However, I still think I had to decock first before I was able to get the cylinder out. I also remember that there are some differences between the way the cylinders lock up too. I think on the Blackhawk you can open the loading gate and the cylinder will rotate freely. (It is a bit frustrating that I don't have a gun here to look at, and I'm having to go my memory - what little I have).

["DoubleAction"]

And just how do you go about cocking it six times without pulling the trigger?

My thoughts about the double-action were just to flip open the cylinder and dump out the rounds. My real concern is with the single action revolvers, and I apologize for not making that clear.

TMan; You will have to pull the Trigger on the Colt Single Action, and the Clones, in order to drop the hammer to recock the cylinder in order to rotate it for the six cocks of rotation. The purpose in lowering the hammer on an open cylinder is to prevent the firing pin from resting on a live cartridge, while carrying.
Ruger solved most of the problem in making the single actions more user friendly for the one size fits all category by installing the transfer bar and placing a warning on the barrels.

The lock work on the Colt Single Action Army Revolvers will always remain as they were, it just requires a feel and knowledge for the weapon to handle it properly. I can lower the hammer without firing a cartridge on a loaded chamber, but I don't carry it that way; therefore, I always only load five in the chamber unless I'm shooting it. If I have any intentions of carrying a Colt S.A. or one of it's clones, I will lower the hammer on an empty chamber.

TMan; Unloading a Single Action Revolver is not quite the cut and dry as it is with other handguns, and neither is loading; that's what got me into double actions. If you tell a single action shooter to stop, unload weapon; you might want to give him a little longer to complete the request. Remember; he is shooting a firearm design which has not changed very much in over 100 years.
Now, if he were shooting a top break S&W Schofield, or other top breaks, that would be another story.

I know removing the cylinder would be an easy method of clearing a single action Colt, but it's sometimes not as easy to just place it back in.

TMan; I seldom have cease fires at my range but when I do, I've been fortunate to have had double action revolvers and semi-autos on the firing line. But still, they're not really strict on me about unloading, just as long as I decock, place the weapon on the bench, and step back.

One can lower the hammer safely on the Single Actions, while rotating the cylinder, but it's not recommended by those who might not be entirely familiar with these revolvers. I've been doing this so many years, my thumb and finger works the hammer and trigger out of instinct and habit. I had to retrieve a double action and single action revolver to take me through the writing down of this today.

On the double action revolvers; If the hammer is cocked, it will have to be decocked before you can open the cylinder. After that, there will be no reason to open the cylinder unless you want to unload it.

I apologize for doing all this writing for something so short; I'm only trying to cover all the bases of of my own limited experience.

[TA]

The decocking system on a SIG is actually considered a safety. It is the only way to safely lower the hammer with a round in the chamber. That guy on the forum is a meathead.

On a similar note; I recall a tragic story about a Policeman, I believe in California. They were issued P220's. I don't remember the exact details, but for some reason, he could not get his holster thumb break snapped over his P220, so he made it a habit of thumbing the hammer down past the safety notch and then snapping his thumb break. So instead of being locked away from the firing pin, the hammer was now resting against an unlocked firing pin. One day he was going into the jail, so he had his holstered P220 on his pile of paperwork and was carrying it in to lock it up in the locker. As he fumbled with the back door key, the gun fell onto the concrete and shot him in the head.

["DoubleAction"]

Jun 13, 2008 18:50:44 GMT -5 TA said:

The decocking system on a SIG is actually considered a safety. It is the only way to safely lower the hammer with a round in the chamber. That guy on the forum is a meathead.

On a similar note; I recall a tragic story about a Policeman, I believe in California. They were issued P220's. I don't remember the exact details, but for some reason, he could not get his holster thumb break snapped over his P220, so he made it a habit of thumbing the hammer down past the safety notch and then snapping his thumb break. So instead of being locked away from the firing pin, the hammer was now resting against an unlocked firing pin. One day he was going into the jail, so he had his holstered P220 on his pile of paperwork and was carrying it in to lock it up in the locker. As he fumbled with the back door key, the gun fell onto the concrete and shot him in the head.

TA; The cops had more trouble not complying with the decockers on the Sig Sauers than anyone. That's one reason Sigarms published warnings in just about every firearm publication regarding the importance of using the decockers.

Jeff Cooper even mentioned his preference for thumbing the hammer down on the Sigs, with the reasoning being that's how it's always been. Some cops would even make the mistake of holstering their Sig Sauers with the hammer cocked.

How much of a problem is it to understand the functional purpose behind the use of the decocker on the Sig Sauers ? That's one of it's most important safety features. It amazes me, as long as this pistols have been around, how many models they currently have on the market, and how popular they have become, that people on the gun forums still don't get it between their ears on these pistols.

[blueglass]

We don't use red flags in our barrels but definitely pull the magazines and leave the breech open for inspection as our RO walks the line. No Mags with ammo in them are allowed left on your bench ever. I usually have mine refilled and in my shirt pocket behind the red line. I also act as a RO quite often at our club.