2" revolver .45 acp or .357?

[MLB]

Kynardsj, it was quite a while ago that I read about the guy setting the target on fire. I've seen pictures (as I'm sure you have) of the muzzle blast and fireball that can come out of those short magnum revolvers though. I don't doubt that if some numbnutz decided to unload a few at a yard or so away, things could get a bit smokey.

Mountineer, I can see how a longer barrel could make for a smaller velocity, especially with a pistol round:

It seems to me that the optimum barrel length (for velocity anyway) would be just long enough to guide the bullet for as long as the powder is burning (or the pressure is high enough). Any longer and the bullet is no longer being accelerated, but actually slowed by the wall (lands actually). A pistol round is made with faster burning powder (as I understand, anyone please feel free to set me straight on any of this), and would likely designed to be burned up inside of the nominal pistol barrel length of say 5". Tripleing or quadrupling the "design" barrel length might be far enough to slow it down.

Conversely, shooting a rifle round out of a pistol, assuming that you could do it without blowing the darn thing up, would likely give you very low velocities.

[Mountaineer]

MLB, I'd say you hit the nail on the head so to speak. After a certain distance down the barrel, the bullet is no longer accelerating, but actually the bullet is dragging down the barrel causing resistance, and slowing it down. I guess that's why you have Rifle powders and pistol powders because of different burn rates that reach their peak at different times.

[TMan]

Mountaineer said:

.... A bullet that expands at say 1300fps. might not expand reliablely at say 1150fps...

Excuse me Mountaineer, but I'm still having a problem understanding. When you talk about expansion, do you mean the bullet expanding within the barrel as it is traveling along, or do you mean it expanding when it hits the target? With your original post I thought you meant that it expands within the barrel, but now I'm wondering if you mean it needs more velocity to expand when it hits the target. Which is it?

[MLB]

I'm pretty sure Mountaineer was referring to the expansion upon hitting the target, in reference to hollowpoint bullets.

[Mountaineer]

TMan, I did mean bullet expansion on impact with the target. I think a big reason for hollow point bullets, especially in say .38 caliber or less is so the bullet expands and has a bigger frontal diameter. If you start with a .45 caliber, you already have a bigger frontal diameter than the .357, even after it expands a little bit.

[KrustyBurger]

I'd like to see a 'medium' frame concealment snub revolver chambered for the gap in between - either a .40 S&W (preferably w/out moon clips - Ruger reportedly had an extractor star design in 9mm which accomplished that) or a sort of ".41 Special" derived from the .41 Magnum. The idea is more punch than .38/357, yet less recoil for quicker handling than bigger bores or magnums plus a discreet carryable size . I floated that concept on Smith's site, but got nothing but a few stupid snides from bigbore fanatic blowhards. I feel pretty d**n confident it'd a good wheelgun for SD.

[TMan]

Thanks guys, when I first read the post, I had this mental picture of the bullet traveling down the barrel and because of heat and friction it was expanding to fully fit into the grooves of the rifling. Sigh.

["DoubleAction"]

A few years ago I carried the J Frame S&W 640, .357 Magnum; The barrel length on this revolver was 2 -1/8" inches. While the gun was punishing to target shoot with the magnums, it was a good choice for deep concealment.
I've read chronography results from various ammunition manufacturers for this revolver; This is a list of a few of those results.

Ga. Arms 125 gr. JHP : 406 ft. lbs. / 1209 fps

Federal 125 gr. JHP : 400 ft. lbs. / 1201 fps

Triton 110 gr. SJHP : 338 ft. lbs. / 1175 fps

While I haven't any information on the ft. lbs. of energy from the Corbon 125 gr. JHP +P, in .357 magnum, I do have the FPS as 1297 from the S&W 2-1/8" barrel.

[Seraph]

Assuming you want the greatest likelihood of lethality, and using the FBI's criteria for such, I think the choice of .45 ACP is easily made here. According to the FBI, you want to completely penetrate the target with as great in diameter a permanent wound channel as is practically possible. JHP's and other expanding slugs may or may not expand, depending on any number of factors other than velocity, so starting with a greater diameter slug is a good, conservative move toward that big wound channel. Let's forget for a moment the statistic of kinetic energy measured in ft/lbs, the calculation of which favors velocity over mass, and instead just call it by a different name - momentum. Momentum, like the calculated statistic of k/e, is mass times velocity, and is what hopefully carries your slug through the target, against resistance. As soon as your slug strikes the target, it begins to lose momentum, because it immediately loses A LOT of its velocity. Unless the slug sheds its jacket penetrating some barrier, it's not going to be losing much mass, if any. Therefor, it reasons neatly that a heavier, slower slug, which gets most of its momentum from its mass, will retain more momentum after striking the target, which should mean greater penetration. Add to this that the .45's greater ogive makes JHP's of that caliber more likely to expand at lower velocities, at which the .357's would be less likely to expand. Of course, either of these is likely to completely penetrate the BG at likely defensive distances, but the .45 is more likely to do so (unless you throw in the wild card of body armor), and is more likely to make a wider hole. I wouldn't want to be downrange of either, but since we're splitting hairs...

[Callahan]

Gotta disagree with ya on that one, Seraph. Texas DPS found out the hard way on this. They had a shootout with a trucker and two troopers. None of shots fired by the .45 hit the trucker behind the vehicle glass. Other trooper was carrying a .357 Sig and his shots killed the BG. Texas DPS now carries .357 Sig, which has very similar ballistics to the .357 Magnum.

The .45 ACP would be even less a threat in a 2" barrel. It would be adequate for self-defense distances with no intermediate barrier. But, if you have a metal or glass barrier, you better be totin' a .357 or .40.

[TMan]

I read an interesting article once about the drop in blood pressure if you make a bigger hole that doesn't hit a vital organ. The author was in favor of the .45, but now days the Desert Eagle and others with .50 caliber are even a bigger hole.

It disturbed me last week when I went to a funeral, which was also attended by my cousin, a federal agent. He now carries a Glock chambered in .40 S&W. Since he has a wife and two kids, I'd much rather he be carrying something that shot .357 Sig.

[Callahan]

Heck, you can get a .40 load that will do anything a .357 Sig will do and make a bigger hole with a heavier bullet in the process (like a .45). He could use Remington Express 155 grain or Speer Gold Dots in 155 grain. They really smoke!

[KrustyBurger]

That's essentially the point I believe. Instead of the eternal horseblinkered pissing contest between .357 & .45 (or 9mm vs. .45), no one will address the gap between the .35 calibers and the big bores/magnum blasters. A medium frame wheelgun in .40 or the elusive .41 Special could do just that with some of the development/production elements already in place. Done right, there would be less blast/flash & recoil than magnums or bigbores, yet there could be sufficient mass/diameter/velocity punch for penetration, stopping ability & control in a snub while retaining reasonable concealability. I dunno, maybe this is too esoteric or Quixotic for stubborn traditionalists. I just think we can develop better shooting tools than a 12-ounce exotic metal J-.357 for snub carriers who actually practice.