is Sigarms, Inc. the same thing as SIg Sauer?

[Misfit]

I'm just curious - need to know if they're one and the same, or if Sigarms is the American adjunct of the same company - and most importantly, if they are somehow different, are the guns offered by Sigarms the same quality as Sig Sauers?

[TMan]

Here is a link to their history on their web-site. Rather interesting reading:

www.sigarms.com/about/history.shtml

Unfortunately, they didn't update their site to include the GSR, which is made here in the US.

I'm not aware of any differences in the versions that are imported to the US. This is probably because the US government hasn't gotten involved - yet. (My car develops 396hp, whereas the same car in Germany is 400hp.)

As you can see from their article, Sigarms, Inc. is the US company that was created by them to import their pistols into the US. Now they are making pistols (GSR) here in the US. This isn't unusual as BMW and Mercedes Benz also have large manufacturing facilities here too. The design is still the German design, and they oversee the quality. The latter is important because I've worked on the Ford Mustang II 4 cylinder engine that was German design, but built here under Fords control and was a piece of junk. (You wouldn't believe the cylinder taper wear after just 70K miles).

I wouldn't hesitate a second in buying a Sig (except the 232, which my friend has and really hurt my hand when I shot it, but is fine with his hands.)

["DoubleAction"]

TMan led you to the best source for obtaining information about Sig Sauer and Sigarms.
In 2000 Sigarms was sold, about the same time frame as the lawsuits against the firearm manufacturers. Many Sig pistols will have frames manufactured in Germany with slides manufactured in the United States. Those slides manufactured in the U.S. will be those of the forged stainless variety, as opposed to the steel stampings found on those from Germany.
The P-229 was probably ther first pistol introduced to feature this U.S. manufactured stainless slide.
Sig Sauer set up shop in the U.S. like many other firearm manufacturers, including Berreta, Taurus, Heckler & Koch, and many others. Before Sigarms, the Sig P- Series were imported by Interarms.
I have noticed alot of changes since Sigarms set up shop here, especially with servicing the needs of the law enforcement and military communities. Sigarms is intent of obtaining those large government contracts, not for just LE, but for military as well in this country.

www.sigarms.com/news/index.asp?display=detail&id=15

["DoubleAction"]

The Sigarms GSR 1911 can be found on the Sigarms website in the product section under handguns, it can also be found in the new release section.

www.sigarms.com/products/gsr.asp

[Misfit]

Thank you, TMan and DA - very informative as always.

I was asking because my local gunshop chain is selling used P220's for $500. (Haven't yet gotten down to a store to check out relative state of wear) and it is advertised as a "Sigarms" pistol instead of "Sig Sauer", which I distinctly remember them having advertised as such.

What Tman says about manufacture in America is correct. It's sad to say it, but my Dad's friend's brother worked in the Honda assembly plant in Tennessee (I think that's where it is) and their rate of problems is far higher than the ones assembled in Japan and imported here. I'm really hoping that if I got one of these, I'd get the German-style quality.

["DoubleAction"]

Misfit; Some of the German manufactured slides will have Sigarms-Inc stamped on the slide, along side of the Sig Sauer stamping. If you look on the right side of the slide you might also find "Made in Germany".
One very important note on the Sig 220; Beginning with Serial Number # 219166, the Sig 220 recieved a strengthened frame to accomodate the newer versions of the +P ammunition. The change also included a lighter, and much smoother, double action stroke and rounded, snag resistant, hammer. This change to the Sig 220 happened sometime in the early eighties; Fortunately, all three of my 220s made it in with 23 pre-fix numbers.
It is good to see a manufacturer who provides upgrades to an existing proven design; I wish our own bean counters of the industry could take notes of this kind of quality.

[TMan]

Misfit said:

...assembly plant in Tennessee (I think that's where it is) and their rate of problems is far higher than the ones assembled in Japan and imported here.

I may have mentioned this before, but it bares repeating: I used to work in the Reliability, Availability, Serviceability (RAS) department on the largest main-frame computers made ($6M+). The same computer was manufactured in the U.S. and Japan facilities. The reliability of the Japan made ones far exceeded those made in the U.S. We actually had one of their machines shipped to us so we could examine it side by side to one of our machines. Amazing, the mother boards that the cards plugged into we polished in Japan. This was an indicator of the amount of care and work that was put into the assembly of the Japanese made machines. This is one of those cases where you couldn't blame the Union either because both machines were made in non-union shops.

I don't think the Germans make the same quality products as the Japanese do, but they are better than most of what you find in this country. (Exception: Bourbon) ;D

["DoubleAction"]

More on the History of Sig Sauer :

www.sauer-waffen.de/index.php?id=21&lang=en


I agree with TMan on the Quality standards of the Japanese, I found this out early on with their Cameras, Stereo Equiptment, Televisions, Television Color Cameras, Video Recorders, Watches, and many other items. I remember when the Japanese built Stereo components using wood cabinetry, metal face plates and knobs, and metal camera bodies and lenses. Europeon products have been for the most part, for those who could afford the art of the craft, like $900. dollar turn tables which float on oil filled ballasts. For only $1100. dollars, I purchased a complete system of Pioneer stereo components that has served me since 1985 ( I got half off for buying the components, as a package, in one purchase). I have a Sansui stereo component system in my basement that I've had since 1976. I could go on to talk of my wide screen, rear project television that I've had trouble free since 1989, or my Color Television Camera that I've owned since 1982 ( Before Camcorders). I just do not buy Japanese automobiles ( My wife does).

["DoubleAction"]

Another Link :

www.sigarms.ch/

[Misfit]

What's really sad about the fact that Japanese-assembled products being of higher quality than identical American-assembled products is that the person responsible for their culture of quality control was an American, Charles Deming. I believe Japan even has a Charles Deming Award which is awarded to the auto manufacturer who had the fewest defects in a given period.