decocker/manual safety questions

[flamdrags]

Ok, I know this subject is beaten to death and if you can point me to a thread that answers it that'll work for me, but I have to say that I'm still confused/unsure on this.
I want to be specific as not to open this up into a huge project/debate so here it goes...using a CZ 75 compact as an example, it is a DA/SA which has one "switch" on it that is either a manual safety OR a decocker, depending on which version you purchase. This is not an issue of semantics, it's mechanics, right? So let's say I have the decocker version, I fire my first round in DA mode and now I am ready to fire my second round in SA mode unless I press the decocking lever which will return the trigger and subsequent mechanisms to DA mode. I have fired a Sig 229 that operated in this way. However, if I have the manual safety version and I do the same thing, that is, fire the first round in DA mode and then subsequent rounds from SA mode, how do I return the weapon to DA mode without emptying the magazine? How do the two version differ mechanically/functionally? Where am I confused? What am I missing? Someone please help me out, I want to understand this.
Thanks in advance.

[TMan]

Without the decocker, you must manually lower the hammer by first pointing the gun in a safe direction, FIRMLY hold the hammer and pull on the trigger to release the hammer. Immediately release the trigger and lower the hammer. Is it dangerous? YUP, that is why they sell models with the decocker. Sig always points out that you should always use the lever to decock.

With the manual safety, you can have the gun cocked and ready to fire with the safety on. You then click off the safety and fire in SA mode. We have police officers that carry 1911's in this mode, and they have a leather strap in the holster that goes between the hammer and the frame - just in case.

With my Ruger P90, the first time I had the gun loaded and chambered and I put the safety on, it dropped the hammer. It was time to go change my undewear. I then read the manual and discovered it was supposed to decock it. The old RTFM got me again. (RTFM in case you haven't heard it is: Read the Foolish Manual (abridged version))

By the way, welcome to the forum. There are a lot of really knowledgeable guys here, and some really have had a lot of experience.

["DoubleAction"]

flamdrags; My logical choice in the double action semi-auto pistol is the Sig Sauers, so I will use the Sig Lockwork and Decocker as my example. One of many reasons behind choosing the Sigs is the double action trigger and lack of manual operated safety levers.
To return the hammer to safe position, from the single action ( cocked ) postion, with a loaded magazine and loaded chamber, press the decocker lever. This safely lowers the hammer while disengaging the sear, activating the hammer block, and activating the passive firing pin block. The Sig Lockwork is the primary reason it is the choice of most upper end Federal and State agencies, although many of their current versions might be with the double action only triggers.

[flamdrags]

Well if I had my choice of what to purchase it'd be the Sig 229 or 239, but in researching I've seen examples such as the CZ 75 that I mentioned above and simply don't understand what the difference is between the decocker version and manual safety version. I think I understand the function of the MS in a single action autoloader such as the 1911, and I think I understand the function of the decocker in a DA autoloader such as the Sig 229. But how does the MS fit into the DA scheme?

["DoubleAction"]

flamdrags said:

But how does the MS fit into the DA scheme?

Two reasons for having a manual safety on a DA pistol would be if you would want to carry it cocked in single action, or if it's a striker fired system. I can see no other logic behind a double action trigger having a manually operated safety. If that would be the case, double action revolvers would be declared unsafe.

[flamdrags]

So then like TMan said, the MS serves a dual purpose, it is a safety (that is, when engaged the trigger cannot be pulled rearward) and it is a decocker (returns the trigger to the DA position and safely drops the hammer)?

[TBT]

One of my first posts here was on choosing a carry weapon and my main concern after having the P239 and several revolvers suggested to me was the lack of a manual safety. At the time I was very concerned with shooting the better part of my rear end off (rookie mistakes … I can‘t believe some of the things I believed back then).

After gaining more experience with firearms and learning about them I have to say that the only platform that I like the manual safety on is the 1911. Even at one point I was squeamish about the cocked and locked carry (the only way to carry a 1911) until I learned that the cocked and locked 1911 is no different than the striker fired models that flood the product lines of most mainstream makers nowadays. The only difference is that you can see it. I laugh to myself when someone will carry say a Taurus that is striker fired and “gasp” at a cocked and locked 1911.

IMHO the SIG design seems to be the league leader. Something like that doesn’t need a manual safety and all in all something like that would only retard the weapon’s usefulness. I like the DA/SA Autos with a decocker. It makes sense.

[flamdrags]

Oh I'm sold on the Sig design, I just want to understand as much as I can about the options and designs that are out there...so does that mean that my above post is true?

[TBT]

flamdrags said:

So then like TMan said, the MS serves a dual purpose, it is a safety (that is, when engaged the trigger cannot be pulled rearward) and it is a decocker (returns the trigger to the DA position and safely drops the hammer)?

Unless I'm off the mark here, no. The decocker version of the P-series can double as a safety, but the manual safety does not double as a deckocker. I'm not sure if I'm explaining that right.

The manual safety version would only serve as just that ... a safety.

[TBT]

TMan said:

Without the decocker, you must manually lower the hammer by first pointing the gun in a safe direction, FIRMLY hold the hammer and pull on the trigger to release the hammer. Immediately release the trigger and lower the hammer.

Am I the only one that doesn't trust his grip on the hammer when doing this? Lol ... honestly what I do when I have one in the chamber in a gun like this and want to decock it is clear the gun.

I drop the magazine out of the firearm. Point the weapon in a safe area and rack the slide, catch the bullet. Gun cleared.

I dunno why or if this is bass ackwards or what, but that is how I do it.

[MLB]

My PPK/s has a combination safety/decocker. Loading a fresh magazine and then racking the slide to have a loaded chamber leaves the handgun with a cocked hammer and a single action trigger. In order to put in a state safe for carry (double action), I engage the "safety", which drops the hammer and blocks the trigger. Then, the "safety" goes off and I'm ready to to.

Without the decocker, I'd have to thumb the hammer down each morning...

[flamdrags]

So then there are three options for DA pistols? decocker, manual safety, and a combination D/MS? Or is the function of the manual safety on the PPK the same as any other MS on a DA pistol? And does that mean that the PPK is never fired from DA mode?

[klmhq]

I'll address the CZ part of your question. CZ makes several versions of the 75.

The 75-B has a firing pin Block. That means the gun cannot fire unless the trigger is pulled. The P-01 variant was dropped onto concrete from 10 feet. It landed on the hammer (in full cock) and the gun did not fire. There is also a Safety Stop on the Hammer that prevents accidental discharge when manually cocking the hammer.

The 75-B also has a manual safety. The CZ manuals encourage you to practice lowering the hammer in an empty gun before trying it with a round in the chamber. When you manually decock the gun, the hammer should come to rest on the Safety Stop and then not accidentally fire, but be ready in double action mode. So the CZ-75 can be carried

1) with the hammer at full cock and the safety on (single action first round
2) the hammer on the safety stop and safety on (double action first round
3) the hammer on the safety stop and safety off (double action first round

Any CZ handgun with a 'D' in the title (or the P-01) will have a decocker instead of a safety. The decocker lowers the hammer to the safety stop and engages a bar to prevent the hammer from hitting the firing pin (no possible way it can fire during the decock. So a P-01 or 75-BD has two modes of carry:

1) hammer at full cock, no safety (single action first round (and really not safe))
2) hammer decocked, no safet (double action first round)

Anytime the hammer in on the safety stop (also called the half cock position) you can thumb the hammer back for a single action first shot. With a 75B, you can still have the safety on. With a 75BD or P-01, there's no safety.

Most of this is from the CZ 75 manual.

Personally, I prefer the decocker. The trigger on CZs are plenty stiff enough in double action mode that you can't accidentally fire it off, but it's a lot safer and instantly ready. Without more practice than I could afford, I would feel nervous about whether the safety is on or not in any situation.

CZ also makes at least two handguns with a safety or a decocker. They are Double Action Only firing. The CZ-100 and the CZ-75 DAO.

Hope that helps.

[TBT]

flamdrags said:

So then there are three options for DA pistols? decocker, manual safety, and a combination D/MS?

I beileve so, yes.

[klmhq]

flamdrags said:

So then there are three options for DA pistols? decocker, manual safety, and a combination D/MS?

Yes, Makarovs have a combination safety/decocker. Don't ask me why, but they do.

[flamdrags]

Well all of this is certainly helpful, and I understand now why I was confused, it's not a simple matter. Any other information or insights that people want to offer is certainly welcome. I picked up "The Gun Digest Book of Combat Handgunnery" 5th Ed, that Ayoob wrote and he talks a bit about this but doesn't go into enough detail to really explain some of the funtional differences. He does however talk about some of the controversies that have arisen from misunderstanding these distinctions. I think that's why I was so interested in knowing precisely what the functional/mechanical differences are between the decocker and manual safety. Ayoob seemingly makes it out to be a semantical issue.

[Callahan]

Flamdrags . . .
The CZ line of pistols can add to the confusion for a guy who is new to auto pistols in that some of their models are quite unique in that they give you the option of both 1) cocked and locked carry and 2) double-action carry (revolver-like).

I looked long and hard at CZs because that amount of choice appealed to me. I figured I could go with whichever carry method appealed to me after getting familiar with the pistol (1911 or revolver).

But in the end, Sig won out and I bought a P239. However, many folks have a problem with DA/SA triggers because they don't like "two triggers." This is one of the reasons why single-action 1911 and Glock, Springer XD, etc. DAO sales are so strong.

By the way, did you ever explain how you came up with your user name?

(Edited to emphasize the unique quality of CZs.)

[flamdrags]

Yeah, I was just using the CZ example because it seemed to be the best case of either/or, not because I'm necessarily interested in purchasing one.

And as for the screen name...I've used it for a long time and NO it has nothing whatsoever to do with "flame" as in "flaming" or "drag" as in, well you get the idea...haha. "Flamdrags" are a compound percussion rudiment. I was a drummer for a number of years and taught competetive drumlines for almost a decade. BTW "flam" rhymes with "bam". Flams are a rudiment, drags are a rudiment, and flamdrags are a compound rudiment. The original 13 rudiuments can be traced back to the drummers of the Revolutionary War, the rudiments were simple to learn and could be used in different combinations to communicate commands to the troops. Today percusssionists universally recognize a list of 40 rudiments, but that does not include the dozens more which are considered compound or hybrid rudiments.

[Callahan]

Wow. Live and learn!

[MLB]

Thanks for the percussion lesson there flamdrags ;D

Regarding the PPK/s, yes, it can be fired in DA. In fact, the act of engaging the safety/decocker ensures that it will be in DA mode once the safety is taken off.

By the way, is it just me, or does using the decocker make anyone else a bit nervous? I'm never comfortable watching the hammer drop when there's a round chambered.