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Post by Callahan on Feb 27, 2005 21:25:50 GMT -5
Yup. I usually decock the Sig after removing the mag and racking the slide to drop the chambered round into my hand. I ride the slide forward and decock an empty pistol. Guess that makes me nervous.
I have a .380 that allows me to put one in the chamber while the safety is on. No need to decock. The Walther won't let you do that?
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Post by "DoubleAction" on Feb 27, 2005 22:09:26 GMT -5
By the way, is it just me, or does using the decocker make anyone else a bit nervous? I'm never comfortable watching the hammer drop when there's a round chambered. Speaking for the Sig Sauer on dropping the hammer with the decocker; This is the only safe method of dropping the hammer on a chambered round. The decocker safely lowers the hammer, while it also disengages the sear, activates the hammer block, and prevents the firing pin from passing to the chambered cartridge by the passive firing pin block. Dropping the hammer by any other method, like pulling the trigger and thumbing the hammer, defeats all the incorporated safety features of the Sig P- Series lockwork. After loading the pistol and chambering a round, the hammer must be dropped, and there is but one safe method by which this is accomplished; The Decocker. |
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Post by MLB on Feb 28, 2005 9:14:59 GMT -5
... I have a .380 that allows me to put one in the chamber while the safety is on. No need to decock. The Walther won't let you do that? Yes, you can load one into the chamber with the safety on. Maybe it's just me, but just as often as not, I find that it jams on me when I do it this way. Probably the added friction of the hammer riding on the slide slowing down the works. I'll have to look into this. Leaving the safety on while chambering the first round would certainly be the way to go. DA, the Walther decocking mechanism is no where near as sophisticated as the SIG from what I can see. While the hammer is blocked from reaching the firing pin, and I believe that the firing pin itself is restricted (I'll have to check that once again), I still find myself easing the hammer down (as released by using the decocker) |
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Post by flamdrags on Feb 28, 2005 9:58:31 GMT -5
So then just to clarify, if we're talking about a weapon that only has a manual safety and it's not of the variety that doubles as a decocker...
When I chamber the first round I've put the weapon in single action mode. If I then wanted it decocked I'd have to thumb the hammer dow...and it's agreed that this is not very safe. Do I have this right? Oh, and if I wanted to I could also leave it in single action mode, engage the safety and carry it in condition 1, ala 1911's?
Thanks again for all the patience and help...and now you know where to go for all your rudimental drumming needs... ;D
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Post by flamdrags on Feb 28, 2005 10:05:41 GMT -5
Oh, and also...does anyone know of the section of the Ayoob book I referred to? He explained a situation where the guns issued had a single lever and some claimed it to be a decocker and others said no, it's a manual safety, whereas Ayoob said it's both! I don't understand how this type of argument could last more than 30 seconds. If you engage the lever and it drops the hammer it's a decocker; if it doesn't, it's not. Right? And if you engage the lever and it prevents the rearward travel of the trigger then it's a manual safety; and if it doesn't, it's not. Right? And if it does both of those things then it's both a decocker AND a manual safety. What am I missing here? Do I still misunderstand the function/definition of these two operations? Am I over simplifying?
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Post by Callahan on Feb 28, 2005 13:40:29 GMT -5
Flamdrags:
You are correct in your last post on manual safeties.
For those interested in the Conditions of Readiness with the 1911:
Condition 0 - A round is in the chamber, hammer is cocked, and the safety is off.
Condition 1 - Also known as "cocked and locked," means a round is in the chamber, the hammer is cocked, and the manual thumb safety on the side of the frame is applied.
Condition 2 - A round is in the chamber and the hammer is down.
Condition 3 - The chamber is empty and hammer is down with a charged magazine in the gun.
Condition 4 - The chamber is empty, hammer is down and no magazine is in the gun.
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Post by Callahan on Feb 28, 2005 13:54:33 GMT -5
Oh, and also...does anyone know of the section of the Ayoob book I referred to? He explained a situation where the guns issued had a single lever and some claimed it to be a decocker and others said no, it's a manual safety, whereas Ayoob said it's both! I don't understand how this type of argument could last more than 30 seconds. If you engage the lever and it drops the hammer it's a decocker; if it doesn't, it's not. Right? And if you engage the lever and it prevents the rearward travel of the trigger then it's a manual safety; and if it doesn't, it's not. Right? And if it does both of those things then it's both a decocker AND a manual safety. What am I missing here? Do I still misunderstand the function/definition of these two operations? Am I over simplifying? In both pistols I have owned with decockers it was as Ayoob said, both. I had a "Colt-clone" Spanish pistol that had a 3-position decocker/safety. Up was "safe," middle position was "fire" and toggling down was "decock." There was no way to carry it cocked and locked. I guess I could have carried it cocked and unlocked in a holster with a strap between the hammer and firing pin, but that could have occasionally led to some very bloody holstering issues. ;D My .380 is strictly up to "fire" and down to "decock and block" the firing pin. |
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Post by MLB on Feb 28, 2005 16:11:49 GMT -5
My .380 is strictly up to "fire" and down to "decock and block" the firing pin. Now why couldn't I have said it that clearly?  Less is more... |
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Post by Callahan on Mar 1, 2005 3:25:43 GMT -5
Now why couldn't I have said it that clearly? Less is more... Thanks, Mark. Didn't know I was doing sumpin' good when I wrote that! By the way, does the Walther have a magazine disconnect? I'm not sure, but I don't think we've discussed the pros and cons of mag disconnects on this forum. Don't believe Sig believes in them. I once read a review of a Sig where the author said something like: "Sig-Sauer does not believe in the concept of the operator being able to render the pistol incapable of firing."
I'll never forget the essence of that comment. I love it! Doesn't it sound so German? (Why would anyone want to make the pistol incapable of firing?") |
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Post by MLB on Mar 1, 2005 9:12:15 GMT -5
No, I think that was a more recent idea. The PPK is a 70 yr old design or so, back when they were figgerin' ways to make them go "bang" rather than ways to make them go "click". ;D
I wonder what the first handgun with a magazine disconnect was. Could it be one of the Hi-Powers?
I suppose it's a good idea for a purely target pistol. No need to be shooting without a magazine there.
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Post by TBT on Mar 1, 2005 14:00:58 GMT -5
Maybe in a pure target pistol. I can't see myself ever owning one though, personally I don't see the point at all.
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Post by flamdrags on Mar 1, 2005 23:15:33 GMT -5
Hmmm...maybe H&K's USP would have been better for my example...they are available in each of the three variations I listed above, DA/SA with a decocker/manual safety, decocker only, manual safety only. I think I finally understand how they can come up with 9 legitimately different variations. Thanks again.
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Post by TBT on Mar 2, 2005 16:22:14 GMT -5
No problem man ... don't be a stranger around here. It's a good board with a lot of good people and good info.
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