1911 vs 1935

[TMan]

Apparently, after finishing the 1911, years later John Moses Browning developed the 1935, which is commonly known as the Browning Hi-Power(BHP). Unfortunately, he died before his work was complete.

I will never forget my first close look at the insides of the BHP; I pulled the trigger, I looked at the sear, scratched my head, vowed to give up drinking... So, how the heck is the trigger connected to the sear. Magic!!! I finally gave up, picked up the slide, and there was the answer: it is done via a bar in the slide. Very clever.

Just this last year we have seen Sigarms come out with a 1911, and Taurus has announced 4th quarter delivery of their version of it. I've lost track of how many different manufactures currently market a 1911. Why don't we see multiple manufactures of the BHP?

If you look look through Brownells catalogue, you will see page, after page, after page, of parts for the 1911, but very few for the BHP.

There have also been numerous "improvements" for the 1911, but for the BHP very little. Of course there aren't a lot of parts in his 1935 design compared to the 1911 design. The less parts you have, the less parts there are that can be modified or improved.

Could caliber be the reason?

[Callahan]

It's the trigger. 1911 trigger is purty near perfect. All I hear about Hi-Powers is how terrible their trigger is and how they need after-market gunsmith work in order to function anywhere close to a 1911. I think Browning had to go through those gyrations to avoid a patent infringement problem with Colt and it did not help his FN product.

[TMan]

Well, I thought the trigger was heavy on the BHP on purpose. It isn't any heavier than the Springfield XD, and it breaks very cleanly. I did buy a new Hammer/Sear combination from Cylinder & Slide, but haven't put it in yet. I'll do it when it is too hot to be working outside in the yard.

Also, that Springfield Armory GI version of the 1911 that I bought has the trigger breaking at 5.75lbs, which compared to the 6lbs on the BHP is not much different.

I have what I think they call the "Standard" version of the BHP. It has the wooden grips. I've had several compliments on its looks, and that is the only gun in my harem I've ever gotten compliments on for looks.

Bass Pro's Fine Gun Room had a BHP that was engraved. What a work of art that was. It was quite expensive, and had I bought it I wouldn't have ever shot it, and I'm afraid of what my wife might do with it.

["DoubleAction"]

Browning's thought on the heavier trigger for the HP was the fact that it was a combat pistol, and was better suited for such an environment.
The Higher magazine capacity of the 9mm cartridge was the design of FN engineer Dieudonne Joseph Saive, which gave the pistol twice as many rounds.
Think of the fact that our beloved 1911 had a military service tenure of over 70 years in the U.S., not to mention it's use in Law Enforcement circles.
For my own way of thinking; I credit alot of the 1911's popularity throughout the 20th century with the .45 acp cartridge. As far as the trigger on the 1911; Many Colts had factory triggers breaking around 7 lbs., unless you purchased a Gold Cup or Combat Government, but they were still fast.
The 1911 has evolved through decades of competitive shooting, just as it began during it's development and testing for it's first U.S. Army contract. We now have 1911s in competition with other 1911s for those few remaining coveted government contracts.
What else can be done to the 1911, which has not already been done?

["DoubleAction"]

One last thought; As Callahan brought this out on the patent. Colt owned the patent on the 1911; Browning was on retainer from Colt to develop the pistol.
But; Patents are only so good for so many years ( 7 ?).

We learned this when Smith & Wesson owned the patent on the centerfire cartridge; Something Colt let slip through their hands.

[TMan]

Okay, so there were a lot of 1911's in production, consequently there could be a lot of aftermarket parts made because there was a market, but the these are more than just replacement parts, they are improvements. I suppose if there wasn't such a large customer base, no one would have manufactured parts because they couldn't do so profitably.

I replaced an alternator on a Chrysler for $35 for a remanufactured alternator. When the front bearing went bad on my wife's BMW, the imported parts place wanted $400 for a remanufactured alternator. They explained to me that it was because with Chrysler there was a high volume and a production line for remanufacturing. (I pulled it apart, pressed off/on the bearing for $8).

So is a 1911 a '57 Chevy? Even if someone came out today with a far superior weapon, it wouldn't get customer base and thusly not have as many aftermarket parts and clones?

How did Glock build the customer base that it has? Was it just because of the use of polymer plastic or was it good marketing? I own a Glock (34) as well as the BHP, and I'll tell you - in my opinion, the Glock doesn't come close to being the gun the BHP is.

I'm wondering if it could be just that the Browning Corporation didn't make the investment in marketing on the BHP.

I have several 1911's, but only one BHP. (One of my 1911's is a 9mm) Why do I only have one BHP, well could it be that they got it right the first try? I still haven't found the "perfect" 1911.

["DoubleAction"]

Many were introduced to the 1911 while serving in the Armed Forces, just like the generation before, and maybe the generation before that.
The Hi-Power has it's copies, but more on foreign soil than in the U.S..
When I was growing up many called the 1911 "The Forty Five Auto". Crossman manufactured the popular pellet pistol modeled from the 1911. Waterpistols were molded from the actual 1911, which looked so real, I once took a set of Colt grips and glued them on one, and from a distance you would think it was an actual working 1911. It was the standard of large bore semi-autos in this country. Many children grew up with knowledge of this pistol's caliber, how to operate it, and how to immediatey recognize one.
From what I understand the Browning Hi-Power is not the least expensive semi-auto to mass produce, which might give reasoning to it or the Sig 226 for not being chosen over the Beretta 92fs as the military sidearm.

[Callahan]

DoubleAction said:

What else can be done to the 1911, which has not already been done?

Make a lightweight version that has a plastic frame, is double action only, has no manual safety and can be carried "cocked and unlocked." Why doesn't someone build a pistol like that? ;D

[TMan]

Callahan said:

Make a lightweight version that has a plastic frame, is double action only, has no manual safety and can be carried "cocked and unlocked." Why doesn't someone build a pistol like that? ;D

;D ;D ;D ;D Nobody would buy it. ;D ;D ;D

["DoubleAction"]

Callahan said:

Make a lightweight version that has a plastic frame, is double action only, has no manual safety and can be carried "cocked and unlocked." Why doesn't someone build a pistol like that? ;D

Do away with the hammer to make it striker fired, and it would resemble the Glock with it's "Safe Action Trigger".

[MLB]

A plastic framed 1911. Hmmph. Doesn't appeal to me, but it might to some. I thought I heard of someone making a "composite" frame for the 1911, but I'm not sure.

["DoubleAction"]

Virgil Tripp's contribution to the STI modular wide grip frames pretty much preserved his place in the Pistolsmith's Hall of Fame.



cobragrip.com/history/history.htm

["DoubleAction"]

Found this Article with a few photos, illustrations, descriptions, and history on the modular frame 1911s.

www.stiguns.com/USPress/am_rifleman/hawk_falcon_april96.html

[TMan]

Callahan said:

Make a lightweight version that has a plastic frame, is double action only, has no manual safety and can be carried "cocked and unlocked." Why doesn't someone build a pistol like that? ;D

Okay, you serious bunch of guys. The way I first read this is I thought he was describing the Glock, which is why I thought it was so funny.

[Fobos]

MLB said:

A plastic framed 1911. Hmmph. Doesn't appeal to me, but it might to some. I thought I heard of someone making a "composite" frame for the 1911, but I'm not sure.

Kimber has a line of polymer-framed 1911's.