GAP versus ACP?

[TBT]

I was reading my new guns and ammo mag and came across a very interesting view of the 45GAP versus the 45ACP. I forget who the writer was but he basically stated that all this hoopla about the GAP versus the ACP was nonsense. By his view the GAP isn’t competing with the 45ACP but rather the 40SW, 357SIG, and 9mm who use the same size gun design.

He’s kind of right. It’s a bullet made to have similar 45ACP power that will fit in a smaller gun. So shouldn’t the 40 crowd be more defensive about this round than the 45ACP guys?

["DoubleAction"]

TBT; For those who are already well dug in with these other calibers, it would take something like drop in conversion barrels to gain the kind of interest we found in the simplicity of converting the .40 S&W to the 357 sig cartridge.
If investing in an entire pistol, just to chamber the 45 GAP; it would first be wise to check on how many current pistols are chambering it ( Other than Glock), how many agencies have adopted the use of it, and how many cartridge manufacturers are producing it. Demand most often dictates the future of any product.

[TBT]

For me, I have no interest at all in this caliber. I just found it interesting that it could be viewed as competing with something other than the 45AP. I just always assumed that it was made to compete with the classic 45.

[ron]

With the availability of the Sig 220 in 45 ACP and now the Springfield XD 45 ACP, combined with the extra cost and difficulty of finding the 45GAP catridges in the small-time, neighborhood gun shop, I don't see a big future for the 45GAP.

I could be wrong as the 45GAP does give an advantage in the number of rounds fit into a typical mag. But I just don't see the excitement for the 45GAP that would suggest a booming market for it. Personally, I would pick up a 357 barrel for my XD 40 before I would spring for a whole, new 45GAP gun.

ROn

[TMan]

Okay, so if the bullet size and velocity are around the same as 45 ACP, what does the GAP buy you? It is a smaller cartridge, which can result in a gun that fits well in the hand of those with smaller hands. I really can't think of any other real advantage than the smaller gun.

My opinion, which I have expressed before: I think it was a marketing ploy to get the Glock name on a cartridge. So we have the Glock and Springfield Armory XD with products that will shoot the 45 GAP.

Think about it: 357 Sig is the 9mm with 357 Magnum performance; it wouldn't make sense to come out with something to compete directly with that. S&W came out with a larger diameter bullet with their 40 S&W. No room there either. So the place with room is the .45 caliber domain. Make a hotter cartridge than the 45 ACP? That wouldn't make sense either because there are +P and +P+ loads. So what is available .45 to .50. Going to compete with the 50 AE? Not likely. So what was open was to make a 45 Kurtz and call it the GAP. The difference between the 9mm Luger and 9mm Kurtz is with the powders available today, you can have the same power in the 45 GAP that you do with the 45 ACP.

Now will the manufacturers jump on the bandwagon to produce smaller guns for those with smaller hands. Not likely. However, in light of the concealed carry craze in this country, the smaller guns may also appeal to those that would like a 45, but like a smaller gun.

There is something about looking at the business end of a small gun with a big hole for the bullet to come out of. It definitely will give a person pause.

[ron]

tman said:

There is something about looking at the business end of a small gun with a big hole for the bullet to come out of. It definitely will give a person pause.

OH, I agree with that statement wholeheartedly! While working in Brazil, I was held at shotgun point. Looking down that rusty barrel from the wrong end made it look like a 155 mm cannon.

Ron

[TBT]

tman said:

However, in light of the concealed carry craze in this country, the smaller guns may also appeal to those that would like a 45, but like a smaller gun.

Which is exactly the point. For someone with smallish hands that can't get their paws around a lot of 45s this would give them oportunity to get 45 power with a gun that fits them.

For that reason, I think that said author is right in saying that the GAP is competing with the 40SW more than the 45ACP.

[TBT]

ron said:

tman said:

There is something about looking at the business end of a small gun with a big hole for the bullet to come out of. It definitely will give a person pause.

OH, I agree with that statement wholeheartedly! While working in Brazil, I was held at shotgun point. Looking down that rusty barrel from the wrong end made it look like a 155 mm cannon.

Ron

My lord ...

[TMan]

Hmmm, hope the Guns&Ammo magazine is still on the newsstands. I'm going to have to buy a copy to read the article. I don't know why I don't subscribe to any gun magazines other than Gun Tests.

Maybe it is because currently I have a stack of unread magazines over 2 feet high on the coffee table. I'm a little behind on my reading.

Incidentally, if I don't get banned for saying so: The Weekly Standard is an excellent weekly magazine. I flew my brother and his wife down here for his birthday and he was reading the magazine and he said: "this is an excellent magazine". Uhh, my brother is a conservative by the way.

Anybody have some favorite gun magazines to recommend?

[TBT]

The article isn't that great. For the most part is is hte standard "ACP versus GAP" breakdown and test. It isn't until the end that he talks about the GAP competing with the smaller calibers.

I'm partial to Shooting Times and Handguns magazines. The G&A and others focus a lot on rifles and hunting at times, neither of which I take part in yet.

[5ontarget]

Just for a little perspective....


I think the GAP will stick around. But, I don't see it being as popular as the ACP, or .40. I think it will be a strong secondary caliber though.

["DoubleAction"]

We already have the .45 acp, with the .400 corbon conversion barrel, we have the 38 super with the 9 X 23 winchester conversion, and the .40 S&W with the .357 sig conversion. We a total of converting three different pistols to six different cartridges.

* I almost forgot the 460 Rowland from the .45 acp, steel frame 1911, which makes 7 different cartridges from three different pistols. We haven't even got into revolvers yet.

*edited to add

[TBT]

Here is an interesting thought though ... head to head, which offers the shooter more, the GAP or the 40SW? The 40 would still have capacity over the GAP would it not?

["DoubleAction"]

tbt said:

Here is an interesting thought though ... head to head, which offers the shooter more, the GAP or the 40SW? The 40 would still have capacity over the GAP would it not?

The .40 S&W also has the 357 sig, using the same magazine in alot of pistols. ;D

[MLB]

As I understand it, the .40S&W is as hot as the cartridge will allow. This is a high pressure cartridge by design (essentially a 10mm kurz) , and this is why .40 +p rounds are not availalble.

I'm making this statement more as a question though, anyone care to "shoot it down"?

["DoubleAction"]

mlb said:

As I understand it, the .40S&W is as hot as the cartridge will allow. This is a high pressure cartridge by design (essentially a 10mm kurz) , and this is why .40 +p rounds are not availalble.

I'm making this statement more as a question though, anyone care to "shoot it down"?

MLB; Of All the hundreds of links I've made to georgia arms and their Gold Dot loaded Starline Cased Sheer Power Plus Ammunition. Has in all been in vain?

Check out their .40 S&W, 155 gr. +P+, Gold Dot loaded Starline cased Sheer Power Plus, and please tell me the price per 50 rds, the muzzle energy, and the velosity.

www.georgia-arms.com/shear.htm

[Callahan]

5ontarget said:

Just for a little perspective....


I think the GAP will stick around. But, I don't see it being as popular as the ACP, or .40. I think it will be a strong secondary caliber though.

9mm = .355 inches
40 cal = .40 inches
45 cal = .45 inches

I think the blue in that illustration should be more in the middle between the two other colors. Looks like something dreamed up by a 9mm proponent! ;D

[TMan]

Callahan, are you a doubter?

The graph took me quite by surprise too. However, if you consider the difference in diameter between the 9mm and 40 S&W is 4.5/100's of an inch and 1/25" difference between the 40 and 45, that isn't much difference.

Another way of looking at it is that the 40 is 89% of the 45, and the 9mm is 79% of the 45.

ammoguide.com although primarily for re-loaders, has a lot of information for the general shooters. I forget what the annual dues are, but I subscribed prior to even thinking about reloading. They have a lot of loads (data points) for each caliber, and they allow you to average those and do comparisons.

There is only one problem that I've experienced: I can't access them when I'm in China. I'm betting that they are censored by the Chinese government.

Anyhow, here is their data for a comparison of the 3 cartridges (note cartridges not bullets)





Although size matters, at least according to the opposite gender, you need to look at more than just the diameter of the bullet.

The muzzle energy number is interesting that it is higher for the 40 S&W. However, remember that these figures are just averages. If you take factory cartridge A and factory cartridge B, you can get different results.

["DoubleAction"]

For someone looking for higher numbers and longer chart bars, mount a 9mm size bullet on a necked down .45 acp size case, ala Dick Casull. This fellow reamed out the chamber of a 38 super barrel to make it work in his pistol.

www.safestop.net/intro.html