Sig P220ST

[TA]

I picked this up today. It is a CPO P220ST grade 1. It came from Sig with a short trigger. I was playing around with grips and put a set of Hogue Rubber Panels and SS grip screws. I weighed it with an empty magazine at nearly 41 oz.

Where these are coming from seems to be a bit of a mystery. Generally, Sig will take trade-ins, go through them and replace all neccessary parts and sell them as Certified Pre-Owned with a 1 year warranty. It is a pretty good deal because you end up with pistol that is in the same condition as a new one after a range session. There can't be many of these in the CPO program, so I figured if I wanted one, I better grab it.

Here is a quick picture.

["DoubleAction"]

Wow TA; My first thoughts on the CPO pistols would be police trade ins, rather than the higher dollar pistols. I've never fired the stainless 220s but had the hankering for one when I first heard about them.

I'm going to move this thread to the "Handgun Area".

[TA]

Oops! Sorry about posting that in the 1911 section.

I am wondering if an Agency or PD tried out the ST and decided it was too much weight to lug around all day. I have recently seen a few GSR's coming through the CPO program. I don't know if they are the newer design or the original Caspian framed ones.

[Callahan]

A dealer in Houston had a bunch of the stainless 220s and, when I first looked at them some months ago, he was selling them for just a bit over $600. Counter guy told me they were turn-ins from trade shows and had been reconditioned, but I don't know if he knew what he was talking about.

I looked one over and they are really nice but just not my thing -- very heavy, not for my routine concealed carry. I felt it had enough heft to keep by boat from drifting in a pinch!

I was tempted, though, because I've always had a hankerin' for a stainless pistol. (Yeah, I know, my P239 is stainless, but I mean shiny!)

[Callahan]

ta said:

Oops! Sorry about posting that in the 1911 section.

I am wondering if an Agency or PD tried out the ST and decided it was too much weight to lug around all day. I have recently seen a few GSR's coming through the CPO program. I don't know if they are the newer design or the original Caspian framed ones.

Some of the new 220s would qualify for posting in the 1911 section. Did you see the new Sig OR is single action only? There's an article about them in the November issue of Combat Handguns. Sounds like the perfect marriage of SIG reliability and the 1911 design.

["DoubleAction"]

TA; Because SIgarms has been churning out so many variations of the same pistols over the years; I seemed to have lost track on the "Stainless" models. I know the first "Stainless" versions came with Stainless Slides, with their own strengthened alloy frames. Then came the Stainless Slides with Stainless Frames, which is where I got lost. The Sport Pistols were the first to feature both Stainless Frames & Slides, but other pistols were soon offered with Stainless Frames & Slides.
When I see a "Stainless" slide version, with the frame in black, I see a stanless slide with an alloy frame. I do have a full nickled P-229, which some have mistakened for having a Stainless Frame, although the alloy frame is nickle plated to match with the slide.

Does your P-220st have the alloy frame or stainless frame ? I'm guessing the frame is alloy but the matching finish leaves me to wonder.

Callahan;
I reckon it was fate that we have a single action Sig Sauer 220, since we already have a double action 1911 in the Para Ord. LDA.

[TMan]

Well, my 226 X-Five is SA, but I must confess - it never impressed me the way that the STI TargetMaster did, and I could have bought two of them for what the Sig cost me.

Actually, when I think about it, the pistol that really impressed people that shot it was the 220 Sport, which has that compensator on it, and it is heavy being made out of stainless. The combination resulted in a 45 ACP pistol that shoots like a 38 Special.

Yes, the stainless pistols are heavy, but that results in less recoil. Remember that if you double the weight of the gun, you cut the recoil in half.

[TA]

Yes, it is difficult to keep up on the Sig "stuff". My understanding is that if they use the ST in the model description, it is a stainless steel frame and slide, P220ST, P229ST etc.. This P220ST weighs about 10 oz more than my alloy frame P220.

Speaking of changes; we recently had a customer call me to say his P220 short trigger was too narrow for his frame. The P220/245 and the P225 triggers are all the narrow type and the P226/228/229 are wider. After numerous calls to Sig, I finally spoke to a smith in the custom shop that said, "yeah, I had one come across the bench the other day like that." The new P220 frames now use the wider P226 trigger. Nobody can give me a serial number on the engineering change.

The CPO Grade 1 pistols (supposedly the best) all come in a red plastic Sig case and will have a factory seal around the grips. The seal is made of a strong fiber paper that must be cut off. If it has the seal and a red box, it is a grade 1 CPO. You can also call Sig Customer Service with the serial number and they will tell you what it is.

["DoubleAction"]

Some years ago Sig Sauer made some changes to the P-220 frame, from that of the original, beginning with serial number #219166. Some of the changes to the frame was a new action and added strength to the frame thickness by repositioning , extending, or widening certain small areas of the frame's mass in order to fully accomodate added strength requirements when using +P ammo. One article I have on hand gives mention that the newer frame can be converted to DAO, where the previous frame design could not.

I could not track down anything on the triggers, however, I did find mention about the newer hammers sharing the same design as the hammers for the P-229. This information I have is almost ten years old, and the information was already old school when I first read it. All of my P-220s, in .45 acp, is the upgraded frame but they are still the German manufactured Steel Stamped slides. If any changes have been made after the above serial number, it might have been made after the P-220 began using the Stainless Slides.

One thing I might do one day is take off the short trigger on my 226 and see if it fits with one of my P-220s. I'll get back later on this because it is important to me to know before ordering a short trigger for any of my 220s.

["DoubleAction"]

TMan; The compensator on the 220 Sport looks like it has a bit of weight to it as well. This added weight on the muzzle end seems as though it could assist the compensator in reducing muzzle flip.

There is something very special about the Sport Pistols, could be the fact that it was Sig Sauer's first big step toward custom shop type variants. One of my 229 Sports had to be sent off to be hand fitted for the optional 357 sig/.40 S&W conversion barrel. Nothing was drop in with the Sport Pistols, everything was hand fitted. Very difficult to imagine having to handfit Sig Sauer barrels, with the drop ins being as close to perfect as it gets.The Sport Pistols was the dawn of a new horizon for the previous ownership and possibly the last hurrah for the German Manufactured Sig Sauers.

[TMan]

DA, I never thought about the weight, but I don't think it is much. My 226 Sport (the one I got prior to the X-Five) has a weight on the front. I was a little disappointed that it wasn't compensated, but it really doesn't need it.

I didn't know that the Sport pistols were hand-fitted. I saw a thing on TV, I think it was last year, where they showed the Sigarms plant and how they were hand-fitting the 1911's. They then showed them building a "P" series (can't remember the model), and they mentioned how everything just dropped in place. As I mentioned in a previous thread: I think this has been Taurus's problem with producing the quantities of 1911's they thought they would be shipping. They do list the blued version as being available for $617, but the Stainless is "T.B.A". I don't know if I want one or not. The STI has spoiled me, and has given me a real appreciation for shooting a 1911. (Incidentally, my Kimber in 9mm doesn't come close to the STI, but part of that may be because of the STI's extra inch with the 6" barrel/slide.)

I doubt if we are going to see much new out of the Sauer plant in Germany because of the Euro:dollar ratio makes the imports so expensive. I've probably bought my last German made BMW too. The last I heard (about 3 years ago), BMW was expanding their South Carolina facility.

There are still great opportunities for manufacturing in China. Most of the manufacturing is done in the east, but the Chinese government wants to expand into western China and is giving good incentives. What is making China so great is their manufacturing facilities - much like what once made the US so great. So someone like Sauer could build a plant there, and manage it to the same high standards. The only real problem with China is that the Chinese have a hard time learning English.

[TA]

DA, your P226 short trigger will not work on your P220. You will be able to see that by just looking at the width difference. The P226 trigger is too wide for the cutout in your P220 frame. At least, that is what I expect you will find. The change over to the wider triggers seems to be affecting guns that have rolled off the line in the past 3 months or so.

["DoubleAction"]

TA; Thanks for telling me this, the locking block on my 226 is a little stubborn in actioning with the trigger pin when going back in place. The block comes out with the trigger pin slot pointing up but don't want to go back in unless the pin's slot is sideways.

TMan; Something I noticed about my 229 Sport pistol in 357 sig is the serial number being stamped on the barrel below that of the caliber stamp. The optional fitted barrel has three different inspector markings stamped below that of the caliber stamp.

I have bought three different drop in barrels for the 357 sig conversions on other Sig pistols and I cannot see daylight between the barrel hood and breach face, using a ten power jeweler's lupe. Finding the same quality and fit in a 1911, as that of the Sig drop ins, one could expect to look beyond the price range with that of the P-Series Sig Sauers.

One good thing about the Sig Sauer frame is how the steel locking block provides added strength to the already high tensil strength alloy aluminum, in an area where strength is crucial. Same thing can be said about the removable breech block in the steel stamped slides. The integral ramped barrels provides the feeding ramp for the alloy frame and the external wide port barrel lockup eliminates the internal locking lugs and most of the internal fouling.

I've always favored steel frame 1911s in .45 acp, until after reading about the Sig Sauer P-220. Things just hasn't been the same since. I call it the best of two worlds.

["DoubleAction"]

A few years ago I was having a conversation with a friend about the Sig Sauers and he brought up something about the stanless frame of the P-220 ST was same as the frame on the 220 Sport pistol. Difference might be found at the dust cover accessory mount, where the compensator would normally be mounted for the Sport version.

[TMan]

DA, well it is a "220" Sport, so I expect there would be a lot of common parts. I just think of it as being a 220 on steroids. I guess the only negative thing I could say about the pistol would be the trigger. If it had the X-Five's trigger, it would really be perfect. The trigger isn't really bad, it isn't like that other 220 that I have that I was so disappointed with that I only shot it once; I can't remember what the name was on it, and it is buried in the safe. (At least my rifles never get buried, just being in cabinets. However, the price of all the rifles in a cabinet added up don't cost as much as one of my handguns).

When it comes to semi-auto's it is hard to beat the 1911 for its ability to have a really sweet trigger. You can buy a fairly inexpensive 1911, do some work on the trigger, and end up with a great trigger. Of course you can totally screw the trigger up too, and end up buying new parts, which in themselves can end up resulting in a great trigger. This STI has given me new appreciation for the 1911.

["DoubleAction"]

TMan; Not trying get to off topic here, however, I cannot help but get the feeling that your STI has given rise to your fondness in the 1911 trigger systems. With the extra one inch length of the six inch long muzzle heavy slide and barrel length, combined with the low recoil of the 9mm, the front sight picture would probably remain undisturbed for the most part of a shooting session.
The Sig Sauer's trigger systems do have a short reset but nothing like the 1911s, which has far more potential for being custom tuned to fit with own's own requirements. Remember that when the Sig Sauer was first introduced in this country, it was for the most part in the P-220 / .45 acp. The other semi-auto in .45 acp was known by most as the Colt 1911 Govt. Model, the standard by which all other .45 acp semi-autos would be judged. The standard factory trigger pull at the time for a Colt was 7 lbs, where the Combat Govt. was 5 lbs., and the Gold Cup was 4 lbs. At the same time, the Sig Sauer P-220 was offering a standard factory single action trigger pull of 4 1/2 to 5 lbs, from it's factory box.

The Colt factory standard no longer applies, it's ancient history, and Sigarms ( once know to be Sig Sauer) has met many new rivals since the days of it's initial success.

[TA]

The Sig classic triggers are nothing to brag about. I have found it does take some practice to get good with them. They do smooth out with some polishing and lube of the right areas, along with a case of ammo. You can also install a lighter mainspring to ease the double action pull. But they ain't an X5 or a good 1911 trigger, that's for sure.

I enjoy doing trigger work on my 1911's. The very best trigger in my safe is on my Wilson CQB Compact. I have not touched the internals except for cleaning. It is what sets the bar on all my other triggers. I have gotten my other 1911's pretty darn close to the feel of the CQB, but none of them break quite as crisp as the CQB. It will put a smile on any shooters face.

It is probably better if you never pick up a high quality 1911 or an X5. You will be reasonably happy with a factory gritty, creepy trigger. Ignorance is bliss!

[TMan]

DA, you read me like a book. The STI has really spoiled me, which is TA's point. I like my two Wilson's, but they have never knocked my socks off like the STI did. The strange thing about the STI was that at first the trigger was creepy, but after around 100 rounds (and some dry-firing), that cleared up.

DA is probably right that the extra 1" of the STI over the Kimber, and the better trigger is why I'm so much happier with the STI. I was just a bit disappointed that my dealer's wife still flinched with it. She has a 1911 mental block after having shot her husband's 1911 in 45 ACP and hated the recoil.

As I mentioned in another thread, she had just finished shooting a 357 Magnum, but with cartridges that came out of a 38 Special box, and she believed what was marked on the box. So the problem she has is mental one. I'll try her on my Kimber 22LR 1911 when I take her to the range next month. (My wife is home for a couple of weeks so I can't be running around with blondes and gun dealers why she is home. ;D)

["DoubleAction"]

TA; Is right about the Wilsons setting the bar for other 1911s. I took the sear spring from one of my CQBs and used it as an illustration to tuned the springs on my to Colt Govt. Models. I now have the triggers I wanted with these two Colts.

TMan; Choices of ammunition will drasticly affect the performance of a custom tuned pistol. S&B and IMI are not very good choices in the .45 acp/ 230 gr./ FMJ for the CQB. I have used this kind of ammo only because I picked up on several thousand rounds at a modest price. Everytime I follow up with some good American ammo, everything falls back into place with these pistols.

Like trigger jobs, as TA mentioned, one can get spoiled; I became spoiled to using certain ammunition in my pistols and revolvers. To tell the truth, I'm also spoiled by the kind of magazines I now use in my 1911s. Not much of a cottage industry built around the Sig Sauers as there is with the 1911, Sigarms is pretty much straddled with the task of making their own pistols better.

There are those who manufacture practical target .45 acp ammunition, loaded specifically for use in the 1911s, and I don't think I need mention any names for those who have known me.