"Power"

[flamdrags]

Ok, I didn't know how to phrase this exactly because I know it is a very contentious and hotly debated issue, but I was hoping to get some solid info...

And as an aside I did search for "velocity", "fps", and "ft/lbs" but no results came up so I think I'm ok posting this question...

What are the important numbers in determining the relative "power" of a given caliber? Obviously no matter how fast a projectile travels, if it has very little mass it cannot generate much force, but given that, we have to consider the actions of the projectile on impact, e.g. the small .223 bullet from an M16 that tumbles and fractures and causes a great deal of trauma.

So the point of my question is this, when I look at the ballistic numbers of various handgun calibers, how do I compare them? Or is it really an apples to oranges thing where only "real world results" matter? Help please!

-Flamdrags

[dogman]

flamdrags,
Have you ever heard of "Pandora's Box'. If not look it up, cause you just opened it.

It is not a matter of velocity as much as bullet design. A 45CAP 230 gr rnfmj stops better than a 9mm 115 rnfmj. The military have found this out.

The 5.56 or .223 does not work as good as the 7.62 NATO. The troops in the sand box can tell you that.
The longer ranges and ageist all the heavy robes and vests worn by the enemy the 5.56 does not penetrate well.

IMHO bullet design means more than anything in the equation.

[MLB]

Good to hear from you flamdrags. Very few subjects are contentious here. Good place to get good info without the pontificating and chest beating.

Subjective things like "take down power" aside, you can get a good idea of the "power" of a cartridge by looking at the muzzle energy. This is a product of the bullet mass and it's speed at the muzzle. This barrel length will usually be reported also as it has an effect.

Dogman has some good points about a particular bullet's efficiency during flight (and therefore the projectile's remaining energy upon impact. Bullet design has an effect on it's effectiveness on the target too, but it seems to me that you're more interested in comparing general cartridges at this point.

I find all this interesting, but almost academic as just about any cartridge will have the desired effect if placed correctly. It's the old story - a .32 on target beats the hell out of a .454 in the dirt.

["DoubleAction"]

The military adopted the .45 acp for it's stopping power many years ago, when the 9mm was not even a consideration. Three Lugers were sent to this country for entry into the trials which led to the adoption of the 1911 by the military. The three Lugers were not chambered for their own 9mm but rather that of the .45 acp, to fit with that of the stopping power requirement sent forth by the Army at the time. In those days of trench warfare and close combat a military sidearm was considered to be a primary weapon.

What was once considered to standard among the military, is now considered to be part of history. One can bring the military into politics but it's best to leave the politics out of the military.

The proving grounds for a defensive sidearm is longer dictated by that of the military but rather that of Law Enforcement.

So the point of my question is this, when I look at the ballistic numbers of various handgun calibers, how do I compare them? Or is it really an apples to oranges thing where only "real world results" matter? Help please!

For a long time I found confidence and trust in two different calibers for self defensive; the .357 magnum in the double action revolver, and the .45 acp in the semi-auto. Either of these would later become the bench mark for which other calibers would attempt to imitate.

I also found certain bullets in these and other calibers to adequetly fit with the intended purposes in mind. Georgia Arms Ammuntion Company loads the Gold Dot bullets on Starline brass to +P velosity in their "Power Plus" cartridge loads. They have a chart which provides Velosity and Ft. Lbs. of Energy for most every handgun cartidge they manufacture, including the .460 Rowland. Go to their site and check out the "Power Plus"; this will provide the comparison you might be looking for.

www.georgia-arms.com

["DoubleAction"]

I went over to the georgia arms website to find out if my link worked and it seems that they have changed their site over from what it has been. The chart is no longer exists where one can make a favorable comparison from all the different calibers. Clicking on a caliber will display it's velosity but nothing on energy. Their site had remained the same for over five years, sad to see it changed. No problem; I have some of their catalogs which I can posted info from.

By the way, their .45 acp, 185 gr. Gold Dot, boasts a velosity of 1100 fps.

I'll try to put together some sort of chart and post it later.

[dogman]

flamdrags,
See what I mean by Pandora's box.

Doubleaction,
If the 45 ACP is history why is every special ops unit ordering pistols chambered for it.

The military learned this in the Philippine insurrection around 1900. They had adopted a DA revolver of 38 caliber and found out it was not stopping the hopped up Moro's. They re-issued the 45 colt SAA and started stopping them.

The first Luger's tested were a lot of 50 in 9mm. and they did not pass for political reasons. The lot of three in 45 were then sent and failed for the same reason. The 45 cartridge they were chambered for was less powerful than the 45 ACP. It was originally loaded for the 1905 Colt Automatic pistol.

See if you can find a Hatcher scale. That will tell you what FPS/FPE and will cross reference it to actual shootings around the world and what stopped what.
The last I heard was .357 mag 125 gr. jhp was the best one shot stopper.

The police started out with 38 cals. Mostly S&W 38 special chambering and found them to be useless in trying to penetrate car bodies and car glass of the 20's and 30's so along came the 357 mag. Another good round is the 38 Super.

Now time marches on and somebody wants to "improve" the LEO's lot and automatics start appearing. Then to get more firepower the hi-car wonder nines came along. 9mm's have less power than a 38 special but more of them in a magazine. 9mm's don't do the job so 10 mm's appeared then 10 mm mag. then 40 S&W (also known as the 40 short and weak). Now the 45 GAP.

This has wandered from your original question , so sorry but I get on my soapbox at times.

Remember those that don't learn from history are bound to repeat it.

["DoubleAction"]

dogman; I liked your reaction, and the .45 acp actually remains a choice of many because of it's long running history, and it will continue to do so as long as there are choice options, same as with the .357 magnum.

The FBI began their own quest for an option to the 9mm in the wake of the infamous Miami Shootout. This became the end result of many law enforcement agencies adopting the .40 S&W, the 357 sig, with more privedged agencies being assigned pistols chambered in the .45 acp. The success of the .40 S&W is somewhat credited with the size of the pistols which chamber the cartridge, which is that of the same dimensions of the 9mm. The 10mm required a much heavier pistol to be an effective stopper.

Les Baer won a contract to build a FBI HRT pistol some years ago but something happened. His pistol was built to the FBI order of a wide capacity magazine, which he chose the Para Ordinance frame for the build. The wide capacity magazine threw alot of companies out of the running at the time. We all know what happened next, with all the candidates seeking to win the next HRT contract. The Springfield HRT Pistol was unique in the fact that it had many components which were manufactured by others, including a Nowlin barrel.

[dogman]

doubleaction,
The lessons learned in Miami shootout were many fold and still continuing, different training and practices. If the FEB's had not been so stupid as to ignore what happened in Saugus, California, I think those agents in Florida would still be alive.

[flamdrags]

I think MLB is getting closest to answering the question I was trying to ask with is "muzzle energy" response. I don't want to debate lethality of particular rounds and one-shot stoppages and the like. I simply wanted to know what is the number, formula, etc. to determine the "power" of one caliber to compare it to another. Surely it's possible and uncontentious to compare the relative power of a .22lr to a 9mm to a .38 Super to a .45 ACP, etc. etc. There has to be an objective answer to which of these are more powerful than the other, independant of how lethal it upon impact. This is not meant to determine what caliber I want to carry, it's a curiosity, nothing more.

[dogman]

flamdrags,
See Pandora's box. Our answers got carried away because the term POWER means so many things in gun topics. Without a specific starting point you leave the field wide open.

Everybody who participated. Enjoyed the discussion, let's try for more.

["DoubleAction"]

dogman; I think this is where the slight notion of a disagreement might have occured in regards to the .45 acp.

What was once considered to standard among the military, is now considered to be part of history

If the 45 ACP is history why is every special ops unit ordering pistols chambered for it.

Standard Military Issue is not special ordered, custom manufactured 1911s.

["DoubleAction"]

flamdrags; If you're looking a formula, you can use the power factor formula which has been used by the USPSA and IPSC.

Multiply the bullet weight ( in grains) times the muzzle velosity (fps) and divide that number by 1,000. That will give you the power factor number of a particular cartridge.

[TMan]

So did you really think I was going to stay out of this? ;D

If just doing a comparison, there is no need to divide by 1,000.

Dogman, you stated:

9mm's have less power than a 38 special but more of them in a magazine.

I think you meant that they have less power than a 357 Magnum. According to www.ammoguide.com, the nominal muzzle energy of a 38 Special is only 200 ft./lbs. The nominal muzzle energy of a 9mm is 340 ft./lbs. Whereas the nominal muzzle energy of a 357 Magnum is a whopping (compared to 38 Special) 535 ft./lbs.

It gets interesting when you throw in the 22 WMR, which has a muzzle energy of 195 ft./lbs. Since the bullet is only 40gr, it definitely won't have the stopping power of a 230 gr 45 ACP, but since the cleaners keep shrinking my dress pants, I find that I frequently just drop that little NAA revolver with the 22 WMR and its holster into my pocket. So 195 ft./lbs. of muzzle energy on the 22 WMR vs 200 ft./lbs. on the 38 Special kind of makes you believe that muzzle energy isn't a good way of measuring stopping power.

However, since this thread is about power vs. stopping power, then muzzle energy does give you an indication of power.

[dogman]

TMan, I stand corrected. Interesting on the 22 WMR. The Israeli secret service (Mossad) rely's heavily on the 22 LR for most of it's wet work.

As I said FPS is not always a good indicator because Winchester and Remington both used to load a metal piercing load Actually cataloged as that) in 357. It was a metal tipped lead bullet guaranteed to penetrate an engine block. but absolutely worthless for anything else as it drilled a 357 diameter hole in everything. See they had good dope even back then.

[flamdrags]

Thanks DA, that sounds like a winner.

And no offense to anyone, but this is a fascinating and relevant topic and as such it would be so valuable if it could be discussed on gun forums without the rhetoric, cliches, attacks, sarcasm, etc. that always seem to make this topic a taboo on most sites.

It seems as though a place to start would be "raw data power numbers" and compare how calibers stack up. Then, assuming "ideal performance" of various bullet types, debate how those power numbers *should* translate to stopping power. Finally, real world scenarios/performance could be used to compare with the "ideal performance" of the relevant calibers to debate how they accually stack up against one another. Just a thought.

All of this resurfaced for me after seeing a post on another forum about the use of .38 Super out of a 1911 for self defense. The author of an article stating that it had been originally designed FOR the 1911 and FOR self defense, yet relatively few 1911'ers carry .38 Super for defense. The question was why? and how does the .38 Super compare ballistically/power-wise/stoppage-wise to, say, the .45 ACP or .357 Sig (as a comparison to a similar sized bullet).

So, any takers on this one?

[dogman]

flamdrags, sounds like a good idea. The 38 super is a grand Old round and has quite a history behind it. It is amazing what competitors do to it to make major power factor. So I think you should start off with your thoughts.

["DoubleAction"]

There was a time when some referred to the 38 super as the 9mm magnum. Now, with having the 357 sig, which is actually a .355 (9mm) diameter bullet, we have a new king to the 9mm equation. It has been awhile since I mentioned that the 357 sig case is not a necked down .40 S&W case. The 357 sig case is one which has thicker case walls than the .40.

I have been fortunate to enjoy the 38 super and the 357 sig in the same Sig Sauer Pistol platform and found the bottlenecked 357 sig cartridge to feed much more reliable in the fully supported chambers and ramped barrels of the Sig Sauers.

[dogman]

Doubleaction,
Probably why it feeds so good is it's bottle neck shape. Do you remember the 38 (9mm) on the 45ACP case called I believe the 38 Clerke. Or the 400 Corbon. Or the hottest 9mm going called the 38 Casull.

[TBT]

For me the handgun calibers that I've latched onto are the 45 and 9mm. Those seem to be the two camps that make the most sense to me. With modern ammunition the 9mm is a good stopper (I have no doubts about the ability of my Glock 19 with 16 rounds of Ranger +p+) and IMO the 45ACP's track record speaks for itself.

I'm sure the other calibers are great too, just not the ones that I have chosen of yet. I tend to carry my G19 (9mm) and I tend to prefer me 45 at home. Its all good.

["DoubleAction"]

dogman said:

Doubleaction,
Probably why it feeds so good is it's bottle neck shape. Do you remember the 38 (9mm) on the 45ACP case called I believe the 38 Clerke. Or the 400 Corbon. Or the hottest 9mm going called the 38 Casull.

dogman; I have read about the extremely powerful 38 Casull but I don't think I've read of many applications or demands for it in Law Enforcement or self defense pistols. The only pistol I've seen chambering the 38 Casull was a six inch barreled steel frame 1911; there might be others, I just haven't seen them.

I'm aware of the .400 corbon, which is also a necked down .45 acp case to that of the .40 caliber bullet, which also followed in the steps of the 357 sig.

I once had the notion of reaming out the chamber of a 38 super for the 9x23 Winchester cartridge. This is a cartridge which many feel should gain overall acceptance over the others.

I tracked the feeding problem of the .40 S&W FMJ flat nose bullets, in the Sig Sauers, to the sharp edge of the chamber as the bullet feeds from the ramp. The angle of the bullet's feed from the ramp caused the bullet to wedge at the top of the chamber, while being dragged across the sharp bottom edge of the chamber. Changing out recoil springs to those of higher ratings did not help. Same problem occured with the P-220 in 38 super, my 229 Sport Pistols, the P-229, and the P-226 in .40 S&W. I took care of the problem and it no longer exists.

The beauty of having the .40 S&W in the Sig Sauers is the ease of conversion to the 357 sig. With the exception of the P-239, the magazines of the .40 S&W can also be used with the 357 sig. I also have some pistols which came in 357 sig in which I obtained barrels for conversion to .40 S&W.

The 357 sig cartridge has found it's place among Law Enforcement applications, which also warranted handgun manufacturers to take notice for their own steps to chamber the cartridge. Although it is not at the very top of my list of all time favorite cartridges, it is my own favorite for use in the smaller more lightweight alloy frame pistols of the Sig Sauer/Sigarms lineup.
I've never regretted recommending an investment of a 357 sig conversion barrel for one's .40 S&W Sig Pistol, whether it be a P-239, P-229. or P-226. I once looked into a HK USP in .40 S&W but found that HK did not offer the conversion barrels. I've often found brand new factory sig barrels for as little as $100. and no more than $160.