38+p Viable for Self Defense?

[TBT]

I've heard it said several times on other boards that in snubbie barrels there is "little ballistic difference between the 38+p and the .357 magnum". What is meant by that and is there any truth to it?

This might be just more internet fodder from the talking heads. I don't even ask on other boards. I come here if I want a straight answer.

["DoubleAction"]

tbt said:

I've heard it said several times on other boards that in snubbie barrels there is "little ballistic difference between the 38+p and the .357 magnum". What is meant by that and is there any truth to it?

This might be just more internet fodder from the talking heads. I don't even ask on other boards. I come here if I want a straight answer.

TBT; What I know to be among the major differences between these two cartridges is found in their case length and energy characteristics. The .357 magnum is a high velocity, high energy, handgun cartridge which was designed for use where other handgun cartridges failed.

Although many handloaders of the 38 special cartridges have formulation their own high energy wadcutter applications, the .357 magnum remains the power platform between the two.

The energy of the factory 38 special loads, even in +P, for a 125 grain bullet, will be an average of 1,000 fps, with a muzzle energy of 277 ft. lbs. The .357 magnum, using the same 125 gr. Gold Dot bullet, shows 1400 fps, with 544 ft. lbs. of muzzle energy. The data I used for comparison is from Georgia Arms.

The 357 magnum in +P, using 158 gr. bullets, will display 1250 fps, with a muzzle energy of 548 ft. lbs. of energy.

The energy, which propels the bullet , will be transferred on impact to that of the target. This same energy will provide bullet expansion and penetration as it continues it's path through the target. Some bullets are designed for different applications and it's left up to the cartridge to provide those levels of energy required.

The .357 magnum cartridge is the yardstick by which all other cartridges, of similar bullet diameters, are measured; It is, and remains to be, the platform by which many other cartridges attempt to imitate.

There might be little difference between the 38 special and the .357 magnum when comparing a 38 special 110 gr. +P to a standard loaded 357 magnum, using a 158 gr. bullet. However; When the maximum loading specifications are applied among the two, the difference produces far higher energy results in the .357 magnum.

The 38 special is a cartridge which has been around far longer than the .357 magnum, and until recently, it was not among those which were designed to imitate the .357 magnum.

TBT; This will have to do for now; I hope this helps. We can talk more about this if you need anything which I , or anyone else can provide, or find the answer to.

[TBT]

Great info DA. Thanks a ton again!

I'm just really trying to decide if the 38 is a viable idea as I really like that light weight revolver for a pocket piece and the light revolvers in .357 are from what I hear, too brutal.

Maybe I need to go with the 640 in .357

["DoubleAction"]

TBT; If you go with the .357 magnum S&W revolver, you will also have the option of chambering the 38 special in the same revolver. Before I had the 640 I currently own, I had a 640-1, which chambered the .357 magnum. The recoil of the higher pressured cases of the .357 magnum, in the small frame, prompted me to use 38 specials more often during range practice.

[TBT]

Your 640 is 38? I didn't even know they made the 640 in 38. I thought the 42 designation was the 38.

The thing really is, if I'm going to use 38+p, then I would rather the light weight of the x42 series.

["DoubleAction"]

TBT; The small steel frames are light enough but also strong enough to absorb the felt recoil. The alloy frames have been around for a long time; I often admired my cousin's lightweight S&W Chief's Special snub nose revolver during the sixties. My father has a lightweight alloy frame Colt Cobra, which is the alloy version of the steel frame Colt Detective Special. Whatever you decide on, you will be the one carrying and shooting it. It's your happiness that's at stake here; I'd rather you come to your own conclusion, with your own decision, than taking my word for something which later might prove that you were steered in the wrong direction.

A few years ago I told someone not to take my word for anything; I was just another internet crackpot. As far as "Snub Nose" revolvers go; the only true Snubs I own are the Colt Detective Specials.

[TBT]

Those Detective Specials are nice little guns. Seems like just when I get into the possibility of revolvers the old six-shot is obsolete. That irks me and has almost made me consider a Rossi because it's a true six-shot snub nose.

By the sounds of it the M&P 340 is just too much of a pain to shoot with full house .357 magnum rounds. I've read enough on them to have seen that most people that have bought and carried them so far are carrying them with the 38+p round and not the .357 round. If I'm going to carry the 38 why spend $250 more for a .357? One guy has even gone so far as to "claim" that his hand was truly injured at THR. He says he has nerve damage or something haha. Not that I believe it, but still ... there's something to it.

I think I'm either going to go with the steel 640 in .357 or the light 442 in 38sp+p. I've all but completely ruled out the extreme light weight magnums. I'm just deciding on the round I want and then the package will be obvious, either the 640 or the 442.

I just wish I had a better understanding of the ballistics and stuff to make a better decision. You get a bunch of people that claim the 38 is fine and then another bunch claiming that it is inadequate. I'm leaning toward thinking that it is adequate even if it isn't optimal.

[TMan]

TBT, with me at least, it isn't a matter of adequacy, but level of comfort. I have the Taurus with 38+P, and the S&W with 357 Mag. I just feel a lot more comfortable knowing that I have the 357 Mag in my pocket.

I've shot 38 Spcl's in the S&W just to make sure everything works well. I've also shot 357 Mags in it to make sure it works with them - I don't care to shoot them again through it. The writers say to shoot these things with 38 Spcl's, but then for defense carry 357 Mags in it, which is what I do.

When you go to the mall, with something in your pocket are you going to be wondering if your 38+P will be good enough if you need it. In all probability you won't ever need to use what is in your pocket. In all probability I won't need fire insurance on my house; what we buy is piece of mind.

[TBT]

You carry your 340PD and not your Taurus Tman?

I guess that would be an option. Pick up the M&P340 and practice with the 38 special. My worry with that is that follow up shots would be near impossible without extensive practice in that package.

[TMan]

Yes, I now carry the S&W unless the pants are a bit on the tight side, which seems to happen a lot at this time of year. With tight pants I'll drop down to the 22 Magnum. (Check the muzzle energy of the 22 Magnum vs the 38 Spcl, you will be in for a surprise).

I don't think followup shots would be a problem. There isn't much muzzle rise - it comes right back at you. Watching my niece's husband shoot it: no muzzle rise.

Don't forget that I carried the Taurus for several years prior to getting the S&W. It was the lack of snagging the hammer with the Taurus that made me decide on the 340PD, or is it the 360PD. Guess I'd better go look.

OK, it is the 360PD that I have. It took me a couple of years before I decided between the 340 and 360. I wouldn't carry it it my pocket w/o a pocket holster; I probably would have if it was a 340. I don't even want to think about what it might be like having a 357 Magnum going off in my pocket.

[TBT]

Tman, I think you just done talked me into an M&P340. Which, in all honesty, is what I wanted to get all along.

Cheapest I've seen them so far (on the rare occasion that they can be found) has been $657 so it's a pricey little gun. After Christmas sometime I'm going to have to pick one up.

[TMan]

www.sportingarms.com has them for $623, but you would have to pay shipping and transfer fee to a FFL there. However, you wouldn't have to pay sales tax.

The dealer's cost is $576, and there isn't any shortage of them.

So, $657 would be a 14% markup, which isn't bad. I've paid 22% before finding out about www.sportingarms.com

Check your PM's in a minute.

[TBT]

*update*

Because I know you've all been waiting with baited breath for it ... haha.

I decided after much deliberation to go with the .38+p. I picked up a Smith 442 a while ago and absolutely love it. I'm not sure where all the "accuracy" issues come from other than the trigger (mine is very smooth but heavy and long).

I still rarely leave home without my G19 but now the 442 rides shotgun in my front pants pocket. When the 19 is too large, I'm still armed. I'll post a better review and pictures in the exhibits section of this site.

Now onto my next must have ... the M&P45c that I hope to replace my G19 with.

[TBT]

Oh and +1 on the DeSantis Nemisis pocket holster. What a great little pocket rig for $14.

["DoubleAction"]

I still rarely leave home without my G19 but now the 442 rides shotgun in my front pants pocket. When the 19 is too large, I'm still armed.

TBT; What you're saying, is the .38 special will serve primarily as a backup to another pistol ?

I don't think there's wrong answer to that one, at least not with me.

[TBT]

Primarily, yes. It is a backup weapon to my G19. But I honestly don't feel underarmed if it becomes my primary carry option on occasion either. While not ideal for all situations, it is adequate for most. I've done an exhausting amount of reading on the subject and to be honest DA, I've become a shot placement type of guy rather than a member of the stopping power club. Not that I don't buy into stopping power, I do ... but I believe that placement is first and foremost the priority. With that being said the weapon itself becomes more important than the ammunition it eats for me. All things being equal though (the same gun in a 9mm and a 45ACP) bigger is still better. As long as it's controllable and accurate.

I really am looking forward to getting my hands on that M&P45c though to replace the Glock. I've no issue at all with 9mm but I can't help preferring the good old 45. If I can get a 45 in a durable G19 size package (the MP45c is almost identical in size to the G19) I can't think of a reason not to.

["DoubleAction"]

I've become a shot placement type of guy rather than a member of the stopping power club.

True; But we still don't want to miss the boat in wanting the best of both. I shoot for accuracy and speed, and make no excuses for the calibers I choose. I do, however, find myself compromising between that of those guns which are more concealable and those which are less concealable. This brings me to looking, as you have, at the 38 Special in the smaller S&W J-Frame.

Far less potent calibers have been used for self defense applications.

TBT; Some of these guys on other forums will talk about shot placement as if it's of no concern to those who shoot large bore and magnums. My revolvers hold six rounds, as opposed to 18 + rounds of many 9mm semi-autos. I have very little margin for error or variances with six rounds. Same with my single stack 7 rd .45 acp magazines; I have little room in my magazine to allow for anything short of proper shot placement. Not only that, the cost of ammo plays a big part in bearing down in making each shot count.

TBT; Your among friends here and, I'm sure everyone will agree, when I commend you for bringing up the topics you bring up here. We have been going with the flow here for several years, and really don't ponder much about some things because nobody brings it up.

[TBT]

DA; You nailed it. It's all about compromise. You absolutely want the largest caliber you can control in the best package you can carry. Capacity is also a compromise. I love the idea of 16 rounds in my G19. But I also love the idea of 10 rounds of 45ACP in the M&Pc. Capacity verses caliber and all that.

I guess if I'm going to lable myself something I would lable myself a "package guy". In a heterosexual way that is haha. First and foremost I have to like the gun and be comfortable with it. If it has what I believe to be an effective caliber and is concealable and accurate in my hand, then it's a good option. .38, 9mm, .357, 40SW, 45ACP, 44mag/special ... all effective in my opinion. Some more than others but all effective and all available in acceptable packages depending on the application and one's preferences.

["DoubleAction"]

You absolutely want the largest caliber you can control in the best package you can carry.

You could not have said it any better, if you had wrote an entire book on it.