Foaming Bore Cleaner

[TMan]

"This stuff isn't very good." That is what I thought.

I'd been given a can of it by me dealer to try. I tried it on a revolver and it didn't appear to do anything - the powder fouling was still there. I told her it was junk and put it on the shelf.

The other day I was cleaning a rifle with Butch's Bore Cleaner, which I've found to do a good job, or so I thought. The can of foam cleaner was in front of me and just for the heck of it, I sprayed it down the bore of the Enfield. According to the instructions, you are supposed to let it soak for 30 minutes. Like I can remember something past 30 minutes.

The next morning I remembered and ran a patch through the bore. Fortunately, I had newspaper under the barrel because this blue crud came out and the patch wasn't just stained blue, it had a lot of blue liquid on it.

After getting a clean patch, I repeated the operation 6 or 7 times, after waiting for 30 minutes to 8 hours between each application. Finally I got clean foam and no more blue.

I'm really impressed with this foam. I tried using another type of foam once and it didn't work. However, I'm delighted that it didn't because after two boys, having the daughter was a delight. I can say that 31 years later it was the best product failure that I ever could have imagined.

The Gunslick foam is a foam that really works, is easy to use, and there isn't any smell.

Slightly off topic - I've given up eating Mexican food. Without the smell of the gun cleaner in the house...

[MLB]

I've never tried letting a typical cleaner like Hoppes soak for 30 minutes either. I wonder if it would work just as well.

[TMan]

I'd be really careful doing that because I've read warning on some cleaners to not leave them in because they can damage the bore.

[TA]

Hoppe's #9 is pretty safe to soak a barrel in. As long as it is just a blue & steel barrel, you're good to go. No nickel! I know an Armorer that buys little tube containers that hold Hoppe's and a barrel. He soaks badly fouled ones for many days and has good luck with it.

I have tried Shooters Choice foam barrel cleaner and it does work well. I have not tried to let it soak overnight, but I suspect that would really do the job of getting the crud out.

The strong bore solvents can ruin a barrel if left on too long. Mostly the ones that will curl your nose hair when you sniff them. If they are designed to remove copper fouling "quickly", stay attentive to your cleaning.

[TMan]

Yikes, maybe using this on the old mil-surp wasn't such a good idea. I've been using it on the MN. When I bought it, I looked down the barrel, and it looked pretty good - no pitting.

It has been really bad. I lost track of how many applications I've made and I'm still getting out a lot of copper and powder fouling.

At first I noticed that the same patches I used on the other 7.62 mm rifles were very tight going through this rifle. As I've been cleaning it, they are a little easier to go through now.

However, I looked down the barrel and it was scary with all the pitting that I can now see, which had previously been filled with powder and copper fouling.

I've heard of fire-lapping where you run different bullets that have abrasive down the bore to smooth it out. However, I can see that would work for removing the "hills", but wouldn't do anything for filling in the "valleys". I guess I'd use the 308 caliber kit?

If you don't know what I'm talking about, (something we probably have in common), here is some information from Brownells:

www.brownells.com/aspx/NS/GunTech/NewsletterArchive.aspx?p=12715&t=1&i=46

[MLB]

That is a very interesting idea. I hadn't heard of that before.

I would have thought that the bore would have been "enlarged" by the sanding and therefore would expect the accuracy to be degraded. I suppose if the bore was very poor to begin with, the sanding makes it "less bad" as it were.

[TA]

I've seen this too. The more you clean them, the worse they look. I find they always look better after you put a few rounds through them. Some of these older military rifles were rode hard and put away wet. Cleaning after corrosive ammo was not a priority. I have a few older military rifles with pristine bores too. I guess an old rifle is "like a box of chocolates...", at least mail order it is.

[TMan]

MLB, I think the pitting is like a volcano i.e. it isn't just holes, but metal is raised too. It is difficult to push a 30 calibler jag and patch through this barrel. However, I agree with you that if it is too big the bullet is going to be floppying around when it comes out the muzzle.

[5ontarget]

Tman,

After you get it clean, you could slug your bore, and find out the true diameter of the barrel. Since you load your own, you can then pick the closest bullet diameter, and that will help with the accuracy.


MN's can run .307-.313 or more. I've not slugged my m38, but the same bore brush on my 91/30 (with a bright shiny bore) is much harder to push, than on the dark m38.

I've also made an electonic bore cleaner from a voltage tester for the nasty bores. It works very well, and saves me a lot of scrubbing and inhaling sweets, breakfree, etc. These are really easy to make, I took the shortcut/more convienent route and used a cheapo flashlight voltage tester. If you want more info on this I can dig some more info up.

Another tip I may or may not have mentioned is to apply Blue Wonder to the bore, heat the barrel and brush/clean it while it is warm. That brought out a bunch of crud. I learned that from a rep from BW.

[TMan]

5OT, that is some good info. I think I'll go the fire lapping route, and then slug the bore to see the size. However, slugging the bore gives you the smallest size, it could be much bigger towards the end of the barrel.

You mentioned Blue Wonder before, but not heating up the barrel.

I have the Outer's Foul Out kit, but reading the directions kind of scared me off. I'd rather reserve it for lead fouling. This foam seems to do a good job on copper fouling with no danger of screwing up (if it is possible to screw it up...).

Maybe I'll try it on one of my cheaper guns. Oh wait, I'm working on one of my cheaper guns. Ahhh, no!!! This gun was $129, and I have a couple that were only $98.

However, this is going to have to wait for awhile because I'm busy with gardening and traveling. I'll still do some shooting this summer, but most of it will be around fall.

[TMan]

The plot thickens: I'm still cleaning this MN, and made some interesting observations:

I've made at least 10 applications of the foam cleaner and the patches still come out dirty. Initially, when pushing the first patch through, it comes out really blue. Then several patches come out black, really black, which indicates powder fouling.

When I first started cleaning this rifle, it was only possible to push the patch straight forward through the barrel i.e. I couldn't scrub back and forth (which, incidentally you never do with a metal brush).

As time, and numerous cleanings, elapsed the barrel "got larger". It is now possible to move the patch back and forth, but it is tight just past the chamber.

Early this morning, (finally got a thunderstorm in Texas), I tried JB's Bore Cleaner. It removed a lot more junk, but it is still tight just past the chamber. I'm back to using the foam.

Now I'm wondering if the pitting I'm seeing is really in the metal or just in the fouling. Having lived in the snow-belt for 9 years, I remember having packed down snow that we drove on for weeks. Then when we finally got a thaw, there were all of these pot-holes, which really weren't pot-holes in the pavement, but just in the packed down snow. I may have something similar here. I wish I could see down the bore better. If the Hawkeye Borescope wasn't so expensive...

Apparently Ivan had heard that "cleanlyness is next to Godlyness", and since he didn't believe in God, he didn't believe in cleaning his rifle either.

You are going to love this: I've been shooting this rifle and "cleaning" it with a Bore Snake.

I'm really re-thinking cleaning, but while I'm thinking about it, I need to clean the house because my wife is coming home for a few days.

[5ontarget]

Cleaning a MN with a bore snake? I think I'd shred a bore snake with the barrel of one of my M38's.

I've nearly given up getting some this one M38 clean. I've soaked it with Hoppes, breakfree, sweets, hoppes elite, blue wonder, blue wonder then heating it, JB bore paste, outers solvent of some kind, multiple times, and used electronic bore cleaner a couple times on it. I've done the shoot it hot, scrub it, shoot it some more routine a couple times with it. The lands are now pretty shiny, but there is still quite a bit in the grooves. Every time I clean it, I get some really nasty crud out of it.
I may hit it with the electronic cleaner a couple more times and see what happens.

I've heard many times on some of the surplus forums, that sometimes the dirty bores shoot better with all the crud in them, than they do after we "fix" them and try to get them mirror bright, or at least frosty. In my limited experience, this has not been the case.


On another tangent heading another direction, the same M38 is a bit more picky on ammo too. It doesn't like the Hungarian heavy ball. I literally had to beat the bolt open with a mallet after shooting a round of it. The light ball, steel cased Hungarian, and Czech seem to do well. I've since learned that much of the heavy ball is pretty close to the limit on headspacing.

[TMan]

I literally had to beat the bolt open with a mallet after shooting a round of it.

I've had to do that with a SKS once. Not a good feeling.

I'm amazed at the difference of pushing a patch through the MN now. I also cleaned the Finnish one, and there wasn't much crud in there. Now I'm on the Swedish Mauser and although I can move the patch in both directions, it isn't smooth, there are tight spots and some places where it moves easily.

I'm falling out of love with my Mil-Surp stuff.

So, I guess the right thing to do is to get the bore as clean as possible, "fire lap" it to really get it smooth, and then slug the bore to find out what diameter bullet to use.

Then of course a couple of my crowns aren't all that great, so to get accuracy then I need to have them re-crowned (way past TMan's level of expertise).

I have a few that I haven't refinished the stocks on because they were already in fairly good condition. Perhaps I should refinish those and then put my Mil-Surp to a whole new purpose: to show off to company when they come to the house. This would work especially well for company that I didn't care much about. So, when home movies don't work...

The conversation might go something like this:

"... and look at this rifle... it was made before I was born."

"Holy $hit, I didn't know they had gun powder back then."

"Let me show you how I clean these. First I put in a bullet to make sure it is working before taking it apart. Whoops..."

[MLB]

Those that only understand monosylabic answers shouldn't ask multi-part questions, but here goes anyway:

Two totally unrelated items in this thread that I don't entirely understand is why the crown helps accuracy, and what the hell is 5OT talking about with his electronic bore cleaner? ;D The whole flashlight / voltmeter thing sounds a bit McGuyverish to me. Sounds like something I'd do.

[5ontarget]

The crown is the last thing the bullet touches before it leaves the barrel. So if there is a dent/ding/scratch, etc it will alter the way the gasses and bullets exit the barrel. The bullet can get thrown slightly off rotation from the damaged rifling. If the crown isn’t formed right, or if there is enough damage to it, the gasses escape in an asymmetrical pattern and will therefore have an asymmetrical final push on the bullets.
That is why muzzle erosion is more important to most shooters than throat erosion. Worn rifling at the bore of the barrel will affect accuracy more than worn rifling at the breech.


Now for the electronic bore cleaner. It is cleaning through electolysis. I use a 2D cell circuit tester/flashlight and a steel rod. There are a couple of commercial products for bore cleaning, Outers makes one, and there’s another called something like Love my gun cleaner. Or something close to that.
Here’s the quick and dirty of it: get some plumbing washers or rubber stoppers and put the steel rod in the middle of it, put it in the barrel, plugging the breech end, the steel rod should come out the top. Oh yeah, wrap some electrical tape around the rod at the bore end so it doesn’t short out the circuit. Fill the barrel with an electrolyte. It seems some combination of ammonia and vinegar are the most popular for gun barrels. Connect the flashlight/circuit tester via the clips, one to the rod, one to the barrel. (I’ll have to check at home, I believe the + goes on the gun, and the – on the rod.)
You don’t really need the flashlight, any low current, low voltage DC system would work. Just a couple days ago the guys on Mythbusters did a jailbreak experiment using salsa. They also did their own version using salsa and electolysis using a radio, copper, and salsa to dissolve the bars. The salsa alone didn’t do much, but the electrolysis with the salsa actually worked pretty well.

I’ve got some links bookmarked at home, I’ll post them for you later.

[TMan]

MLB, 5OT is right on about the crown. The resident expert at our range cuts his own crowns at 11⁰. He was explaining to me that the gases leave at much greater a velocity, which is why they have so much effect on the flight of the bullet.

Although I have the "electronic bore cleaner" from Outers, I'm a little nervous about using it. There are warnings that if you screw up, you will ruin your bore. One of the ways of screwing up is forgetting about it and leaving it running too long. What me forget? Forget wnat? ;D

I've been thinking about heating up the barrel, and what would be a good way of doing that - safely!!!

One idea is to connect a 100 watt light bulb in series with the barrel. The current flowing though the barrel might heat it up, but I doubt it. I don't think there would be enough resistance. A 18 gage wire really doesn't heat up much even with a 1000 watt iron (which you shouldn't do by the way).

I'm not wild about using an open flame and the barrel won't fit in the oven.

Anyone with ideas?

[5ontarget]

Tman,

You could shoot a magazine or two until the barrel heats up, then scrub it.
I know you said you didn't like an open flame on the barrel, but a propane torch works really well. Just heat it slowly, remember you're heating it from the outside in, not the inside out, like you would with shooting. When I heated mine, I didn't make it as hot with the torch as I have on occasion shooting it.
Other ideas....how about a grill. I can see it now, your neighbor comes over, "What are you grilling over there?" "Oh, nothing just a gun barrel. The doctor said I needed more iron in my diet."
Hook it up to a welder, that should generate enough heat. Of course it would also likely have ill effects on the barell as well.
Isn't it hot in Texas this time of year? The trunk of a black car should get pretty hot.

Hey, if you get the right materials in the grill, you could do your own case hardening.

MLB,

Here are a couple of links to the EBC's.

www.lovemyguns.com/ebc1.htm

www.surplusrifle.com/reviews/copperout/index.asp

www.outers-guncare.com/products/foulOut_page.aspx?subcatg_id=12

[MLB]

Hey, thanks for all of the good info guys. I may have to try that home made electrolysis cleaner out. I wonder what the proper solution is. Sounds like either the water-vinegar-ammonia solution or straight ammonia seemed to work. I would think you would want a different solution for dissolving copper or lead. Where's that old chemistry book...

The crown info seems to make sense too. I always figured the crowned barrels were to protect against dings, but the discussion of what angle seemed irrelavent to me though. I suppose the proper venting of gasses would be affected by the angle.

[5ontarget]

I was going to solder an old flashlight, but then I remembered I had one of these out in the shed. I had bought it a long time ago before I had a multimeter.

www.amazon.com/gp/product/B0009KN7QK/002-4135681-7740837?v=glance&n=3760901

This is about as cheap as I think you'll find the D cell variety.
I also have a AA tester, but I would have to modify it some to make it work. The D cell light required no mods.

[TMan]

Well, it took over a week, nearly 500 patches, two cans of foaming bore cleaner, two bronze brushes, 1/4 of a jar of JB's Bore Cleaner, but the bore of the MN is no longer dirty - just pitted.

I've concluded, but I may be wrong, that there were layers of fouling in the barrel. It acted like once I got a lot of copper out, I then got a lot of powder fouling out, then more copper etc.

Anyhow, I'm kind of disqusted with the gun. However, I consider myself lucky that it didn't blow up in my face. Also, it answered the question why the MN carbine gave me tighter groups - no one shot the crap out of the carbine, or at least they occasionally cleaned it.

I consider the fact that I paid $20 more for this "sniper" version, a waste of money. I think the fact that it was a sniper version just meant that someone shot it a lot practicing. I'm wondering if it had been used at a range just for people to practice with.

Another thing I learned today was that no matter how many times you have assembled/disassembled a rifle, if you haven't done it in awhile refer to the instructions. I was beating on the trigger control group with the heel of my hand while attempting to put a SKS back together. My hand is sore. Finally I went and got a big rubber hammer. #$%^@* It still wouldn't go back into the stock and lock in place. Finally I remembered that you have to put the safety on. One little tap and it locked.

At least my guns don't get weeds.