Series 80 adding 1-1/2lbs???

[TMan]

I decided that the 5lb trigger pull on the Taurus was just a bit much. I figured that I could reduce that by removing some of the tension on the sear and disconnecter spring.

After doing so, the hammer was dropping at 3-1/2lbs, which is what some of my other 1911's, like the Wilson and the Kimber break at, and I can live with that. Then I completely reassembled the pistol, tried it, and the trigger felt heavier. I measured it and it was 4-3/4lbs. I'd only removed 1/4lb. So the addition of the slide added 1-1/2lbs to the trigger pull. I went to bed.

This morning I woke up thinking about it and remembered that the Taurus was a Series 80. I tried manually moving the plunger, and it didn't seem to have a lot of resistance. Could this account for a 1-1/2lb increase in trigger pull?

["DoubleAction"]

TMan; If the Taurus has the same series safety levers and plunger spring as that of the Colt, obtaining a 3 1/2 trigger is not impossible. I have three of the Series 80 Colts and all three are around 3 1/2 lbs. Reducing the tension of the mainspring also contributes to a lighter trigger. One thing I do with the sear spring is file and polish the corner of the leg that pushes up on the disconnector.

[TMan]

DA, you said that 3-1/2 lbs is "not possible", but then you said you had 3-1/2 lbs on your Colt 80's. I don't understand.

I put in a Wolff reduced power mainspring, and I reduced the tension on both the sear and disconnector springs. All to no avail. I think I'm getting something going on with the plunger in the slide. I'll work on it some more today. (We are in the middle of an ice storm and I can't go outside).

["DoubleAction"]

admin said:

TMan; If the Taurus has the same series safety levers and plunger spring as that of the Colt, obtaining a 3 1/2 trigger is not impossible.

TMan; Try polishing the levers. The safety plunger for the firing pin should be very light. Because the safety levers ride next to the inside of the frame, you might be picking up some friction there. When Gunsmiths were working up the Colts, many were doing 4 to 4 1/2 lb. trigger jobs on the Series 80 pistols to be used in defensive carry roles.

Target pistols seem to command a lighter trigger than one intended for carry, it is for this reason many prefer less moving parts to eliminate friction. Although Colt was making their Gold Cups with the series 80 passive firing pin safeties, this only added to the complexity of an otherwise simple design. Be it as it was, Colt began manufacturing their Gold Cups with much lighter triggers than those in the past. I first found this out with my Gold Cup Trophy, after having worked with the Series 80 National Match for a number of years. I also smoothed up two Series 80 Gold Cup Trophy pistols for my brother with favorable results.

Because you are working with the Taurus, you might be picking up friction on the inner frame area with the safety levers. Brownell's has been selling some special coated series 80 safety levers for the Colts for several years, which might be compatible with the Taurus. After tweaking the sear spring and replacing the mainspring, the only thing left to do is polish the contact surfaces. Action lube works until it begins to create a mushy feeling the movement of trigger components. You might try applying a small amount of action lube to only the contact areas after you polish the levers.

Your not in bad shape; I completely gutted the inards of a brand new Colt Series 70 in favor of a much better trigger, hammer, disconnector, and sear.

[TMan]

Thanks for the info DA. I tried polishing the plunger itself, but to no avail. I'll try one part at a time because I want to know exactly what the problem is.

["DoubleAction"]

TMan; I wanted to find something in regards to the Series 80 trigger which you would find interesting, so I got out Layne Simpson's "The Custom Government Model" book. Layne determined that the Series 80 plunger added 1/4 lb. to the trigger on one of the guns he looked at. I think you have this book, if so, turn to page 209 to read about the fire control system. The Series 80 trigger is mentioned on page 213. He also gives mention of how the Gold Cup's wider trigger feels like 1/2 lb. has been taken off the feel of the trigger pull. He lubricates all the components much like I do.

When I get around to it, I would like to install a Dlask trigger to my Colt Trophy.

[TMan]

DA,he says:

I checked the weights of trigger pulls on two custom guns

I think the key here is "custom guns". I think this Taurus is going to need a little work to get to the "custom guns" status.

My thing is that I really want to know what the problem is so I'll attack polishing a little at a time to see if I can see what is most rewarding i.e. I don't want to do a ton of things and then find out that I knocked a pound off the trigger. I want to know what gives me the best bang for the buck.

I went to my dealers today to pick up the Marlin 60 today. She had to leave to pick up her kids after school, so I minded the store and perused the stock. I took home a Springfield P19134L in 9mm for $762. It doesn't have the plunger. I love it when Santa comes early. I saw a couple other things I'd like, but then remembered these dang windows that I have to have replace.



Modified to add: DA knows this, but others may not: the Springfield Armory pistol is a series 70. Contrasting it to the Taurus: it is a 9mm vs 45 ACP so ammo is a lot cheaper. It is a stainless steel pistol. There is no checkering on the front strap. It has adjustable sights. Its grips are wood. It has a two piece guide rod. You don't need 20-20 eyesight to see the beveled mag well. It comes well lubricated. Lubricated? hey, it is Friday night; lubricated sounds like a good idea.

["DoubleAction"]

tman said:

DA,he says:

I checked the weights of trigger pulls on two custom guns

I think the key here is "custom guns". I think this Taurus is going to need a little work to get to the "custom guns" status.

TMan; We are only talking about the fire control system on your pistol, and nothing else. By deciding to modify your trigger to those specifications found common in custom manufactured pistols, you are indeed "Customizing" that part of your pistol to comply with your own individual requirements. You can shave pounds off your trigger by using the existing components or you can replace every fire control component, as I did with my Government & Combat Government Models. In the end, you will have a pistol with a "Customized" trigger, as you wanted.

[TMan]

Well, I cut another coil off the safety plunger spring, I also went through the Brownell's writeup for getting a 2-1/2lb trigger.

All went well and I got the 2-1/2lb trigger pull with one exception: I now notice a little take-up, which I didn't notice before. I'm not sure what I could have done that caused, nor do I know how to get rid of it. There is a little screw in the trigger that you can adjust to get rid of over-travel, but nothing for take-up.

["DoubleAction"]

TMan; Some triggers have take up tabs placed on the trigger stirrup. Nowlin, Dlask, and Chip McCormick triggers offers take up tabs. The spring in your safety plunger should have been one of few coils and very light to begin with. I'm not very fond of most factory triggers, which is why I've replaced all, with the exception of my Wilsons and Gold Cups.

[TMan]

DA, I was afraid that there wasn't anything I could do. Also, I noticed that there is vertical movement in the trigger i.e. it is loose. I didn't touch the trigger-bar rails, and the only thing I did to the bar is polish the end surface where the disconnector touches it.

Already I did something that I didn't want to do i.e. I polished a lot of stuff at once, and I should have polished, measured, polished, measured, et al. Then I would know how much each step gave me in return for the effort.

I don't want to replace anything on this pistol. I have others that I would consider it, but I want to leave this one intact.

I didn't touch the engagement, which makes me a little nervous about the resulting light trigger. I may have the sear and/or the disconnector spring set too light. I'll find out this morning, if I ever get out of the warm clubhouse and onto the firing line. It is 22⁰ currently, but I'm the Range Officer this morning so I have to go.

Last night while I was dry-firing this thing, I noticed that the white dot on the front sight was out of focus. I raised my head until it came into focus. (Progressive lenses). Hmmm, I then went and dug out the GI version from Springfield, and voila; by raising my head, I can see the front sight. Next question is what that will do to my accuracy.

Modified to add: the spring seemed rather heavy to me. After taking off two coils, I really noticed the difference in the way the plunger moved.

Another thing, on a lighter side: I couldn't find a regular pencil, so I took one of those yellow plastic cheap mechanical pencils that I found in the study and with the Dremel cut off the pocket holder. Next I went back into the study to retrieve the gun where I'd set it down. I just couldn't wait; I put in the pencil and pulled the trigger. The pencil went flying through the air, hit the wall, and fell down behind the desk - its final resting place because no way am I going to try to move that desk.

[TA]

The 2 1/2 lb trigger pull article is a very good one and I too got excellent results from it. I really liked the light pull BUT, I did start getting hammer follow after shooting it for a while. As long as your 1/2 cock notch is doing it's job, you shouldn't end up with full auto. I bumped it all back up to about 3.5 - 4 lbs.. I ended up with an excellent trigger, but I am no Jack Weigand.

[TMan]

TA, I fired the gun yesterday and I had two failures. One was when the trigger didn't reset, and the second was a delayed hammer drop after pulling the trigger; it wasn't a long delay, just a fraction of a second, just long enough to be noticeable.

I think that 2-1/2 lbs might be fine for a Series 70, but not for a Series 80 in other words: if I was to remove the Series 80 components, my trigger would be less that 2-1/2 lbs.

I've concluded that 3 to 3-1/2lbs is fine for a target gun; when you get from 3-1/2 to 4lbs you are in a gray area; above 4lbs you will need good trigger control. I shot well with the Taurus initially, but really noticed the heavy trigger.

When you are talking target rifles, I like it well under a pound.

[MLB]

All this talk of 2-3 lb triggers is making me jelous. My ppk/s is down to 17lbs in DA.

[TMan]

mlb said:

... My ppk/s is down to 17lbs in DA.

Prior to shooting, take your thumb and place it on the hammer; then pull it backward and down until it catches. ;D

["DoubleAction"]

TMan; Tweaking the sear spring too far out will give you a very light trigger, however, it will result in a very weak disconnector return, slow and light sear engagement with the hammer hook, and possible hammer follow during shooting which could also cause sear nose damge.

You can compare your sear spring angles to that of your Wilson CQB spring, "Or" you can take your spring type trigger gauge and follow Jack Weigand's instructions on Brownell's Bench Talk section for obtaining a 2 1/2 lb. trigger to obtain the correct sear spring adjustment.

The pencil test is good for testing passive firing pin safeties, mainspring tensions, firing pins, and decockers in other designs. Filing and polishing the corner on the center leg of the spring, where it presses on the disconnector, provides far less friction and grit to the surfaces of the two contact areas. I always check any grit to the trigger shoe and stirrup to the inside of frame prior to proceeding to installing any other part. The rear surface of the trigger stirrup and mating with the disconnector plate should be polished very lightly, using only a small amount of oil for lube if any. I had rather have a smooth, friction free, fast action, and positive locking 4 1/2 lb. trigger than I would a sluggish unreliable 2 1/2 lb. However, I will settle on a well tuned 3 to 3 1/2 lb. trigger which provides me with the same reliability found with a 4 1/2 lb.

[TMan]

DA, I polished the rear of the trigger bar, and disconnector surface with Flitz and the Dremel. In fact, all the surfaces referenced in the Brownells' article were used for polishing and for setting the spring tensions. However, I think you only get the reliable 2-1/2 lb trigger if you stone the engagement according to the article. I left the engagements surfaces alone and just did the spring tension portion. No good!!!

I added more tension to the disconnector leg, and a little more to the sear leg. The pistol is working okay now with one exception: if I put a snap-cap in the magazine, and then let the slide slam home, the hammer will fall to the safety notch. If I do the same thing while holding the trigger depressed, the hammer doesn't fall. I think this means that the disconnector spring is still a little too light. However, at the range, with live ammo, the failure doesn't occur.

I have a little metal block with two pins on it. There is a name for it, but it escapes me at the moment. Anyhow, you put the hammer on one pin and the sear on the other one. Doing so you can observe the engagement. With the sear and hammer from the Taurus you can see that the engagement is quite positive. I would think that the Taurus is an exact Colt copy so that another's sear and hammer would fit okay, but I could be wrong i.e. the location of the pins might be slightly different. (This is addressed in the article). I don't know if I can buy parts directly from Taurus (Springfield won't sell XD parts), so with these unknowns, I'm not about to tackle the engagement surfaces.

I'm finding it very difficult in telling the difference between different weights of trigger pull. My dealer was complaining about the trigger on the Springfield being heavy. I felt it and thought it was light. She was right: 5-3/4lbs.

The thing that bothers me the most about the Taurus trigger is that there is just a little bit of freeplay. I've been told that you can take a centerpunch and hit the inside of the trigger stirrup to create a dimple on the other side. You can then stone the dimple to get it down to the point that there is just enough freeplay that the trigger still will work. Again, without knowing about parts availability, I'm not going to do anything.

["DoubleAction"]

TMan; The only trigger shoe I bothered to alter for fit was the wide trigger of a Colt Gold Cup National Match. I added more vertical to the shoe by cutting two small slits on the upper and lower rear of the shoe, I then took a chisel and spread the shoe to give it more vertical length and filed/polished to fit. The slits could be where they would not be visible on the exposed area of the shoe when in the frame.

Horizontal, or Side to side, play is taken up prior to vertical by hammering the top and bottom of the shoe to make it wider at the top and bottom.

What I like about the Dlask triggers is they're over sized for fitting.

["DoubleAction"]

TMan; If you decide to spread the trigger shoe for vertical play take up, place the front of the shoe on a block of wood while you strike the rear slits with the chisal. I first cut my shoe using a dremel. I spread my shoe for side to side play using a large hammer on an anvil, striking it with short taps until it became just the width I was looking for.