Shock Buffers vs Limp Wristing

[TMan]

I shot the old P220 Sport the other day. This is the one with the compensator, which makes it difficult to get the barrel clean. So... don't clean it.

I shot extremely well, with 64% of my shots in dead-center. However, the RO, that was standing behind me, commented that he was surprised at the amount of muzzle-flip that I was getting.
I laughed and said: "It is because I am limp-wristing the gun".

Normally we think of limp-wristing as something that ranks up with wife beating - never, never, never!!! However, by not having my normal tight hold on the pistol, there is a lot less movement on the front sight.

Since the gun did not stove-pipe, and I shot better, it caused me to think: is limp-wristing all that bad? How about the effects internally on the gun? Ths slide is not going to bang against the frame with the amount of force that it would if it was held in a vice like grip. Therefore, in guns like this where a shock-buffer isn't practical, wouldn't limp-wristing be a good thing?

["DoubleAction"]

..TMan; You might be a good candidate for Hannie Caulder's Weight Winder :

[glow=white,4,300]"Hannie Caulder"
Meets
"The Weight Winder"
[/glow]

The 'Weight Winder'.

Another classic exercise is the 'weight winder'. Get a 12" piece
of rod or pipe about 1 1/4" diameter, 5' of clothesline, and a plastic 1/2 gal.
jug. Tie the line around the center of the rod (a hole will help), and to
the bottle. Fill the bottle half full of water, and holding the rod at arms
length with both hands, SLOWLY wind the weight up to the rod, and then SLOWLY
unwind it. Repeat until your arms fall off ;-).

www.recguns.com/Sources/XIIA1.html

I made my Weight Winder, about 15 years ago, using a 1' inch dowel, long boot laces, and various iron weights. I also have to use a grip master since I had my stroke.

Thanks Hannie !!

....If Hannie can't do it, maybe this might work :

The GripMaster Grip Exerciser

The original GripMaster grip exerciser is available in Yellow (3lb), Blue (5lb), Red (7lb), and Black (9lb) resistance per finger. Whether you're a comeptiton shooter, or a golfer, musician, baseball player, tennis player, bowler, or practice martial arts, this exerciser can help improve your game or sport. Use it for grip strengthening or for dry fire practice. Physical Therapists use this product daily to improve muscle tone and to treat tennis elbow.

Also available in the Vio style (4 lb and 6 lb) and the PRO style (7 lb, 9 lb, 11 lb). The Vio style is just that, stylish. The PRO series is for anyone who has larger hands and requires a more durable exerciser that also offers the same or increased resistance per finger.

www.gripmaster.com.au/index1.htm

www.accurate-edge.com/gripmastergripexerciser.aspx

By The Way, TMan; It also depends on the kind of ammunition that you are using. Was you having a lot of muzzle flash ?

["DoubleAction"]

....So much about Hannie and The Gripmaster:

...TMan; The 220 Sport don't need a Shock Buffer, because strength of the frames,on P-Series Sig Sauers,rest on the Locking Block....Unlike the 1911 pistols, where the recoil spring & it's guide rod head batters on the frame.
...The Recoil Master Rod was made to damper the recoil upon recoil.

....Your 220 Sport Pistol has the compensator that pushes down on the muzzle, as the bullet exits the barrel. The amount of muzzle flash also depends on a powder used in the cartridge...Most .45 acp target rounds have fast burning powders ( Magnums has Slow Burning Powders ) ....Thus, you would have little muzzle flash...By the time the bullet reaches the end of the barrel, the remaining gases is already being spent on the Slide's Cycle.
.....Was you holding both of your hands on your pistol ? ( Two Handed Hold )

From reading your thread again, I really don't see any signs of you Limp Wristing your pistol....Maybe try the same grip, while shooting your revolver magnums, using the double action strokes.

....The Sig Sport Pistols are very smooth and very accurate; Some of my best long distance shooting was made by my Sig Sport Pistol ( 357 sig ).

[TMan]

DA, I was using two hands, but my grip was very relaxed. I don't think I could shoot a 1911 with that loose a hold.

So, I think what you are saying is that if I was stronger, I could hold the pistol more firmly without having muscle shake. I hadn't thought of that.

Although I am a big 1911 fan, I can't shoot any better with any of my high dollar 1911's than I did with this Sig.

["DoubleAction"]

Jun 30, 2011 6:43:36 GMT -5 TMan said:

DA, I was using two hands, but my grip was very relaxed. I don't think I could shoot a 1911 with that loose a hold.

So, I think what you are saying is that if I was stronger, I could hold the pistol more firmly without having muscle shake. I hadn't thought of that.

Although I am a big 1911 fan, I can't shoot any better with any of my high dollar 1911's than I did with this Sig.

..TMan; By the fact that you was using a support hand, your grip was enhance with a brace, I shoot the same way.

....I know about the find of 1911 pistols that you have in your arsenal and if I'm not mistaken, all of them features the high ride beavertail grip safeties, which places the grip closer to the axis of the bore. Another plus for your 1911 pistols, is the triggers. I know how you like the lighter triggers and these triggers creates little disturbance upon the point of primer impact when the shot is made, this equates to less muzzle movement when the bullet exits the barrel .....If I want speed & accuracy, from a semi-auto pistol, I reach for one of my 1911 pistols.

["DoubleAction"]

....TMan; The Match Grade Barrel, The Compensator, and the craftsmanship on the Sig Sport is probably the reason the pistol shoots so accurate, with little effort.

.....My best and most accurate shot, in a indoor range, was made with my Sig 229 Sport Pistol, using the 357 sig cartridge.

....Some times, It take me awhile to get my thoughts together with the Sigs & the 1911s....I like them both, for different reasons.

[TMan]

Jul 1, 2011 5:16:53 GMT -5 "DoubleAction" said:

....I like them both, for different reasons.

I agree, but I must add that the trigger on this P220 Sport is superb. It has a long take-up because of the DA/SA design, but then the break is light and clean. I'm sure it feels lighter than what it actually is.

It would be nice if we had a way of measuring the PSI on the finger when pulling the trigger. As we discussed years ago: the width of the trigger makes a big difference in what you feel when pulling the trigger.

["DoubleAction"]

....TMan; In my honest opinion, S&W seen the same, when they was installing the .500" inch wide triggers on the target grade revolvers and so did Colt, when they used wide triggers on the Gold Cups.

...Distributing the weight, of the trigger, to a much larger area on the pad of the finger, makes a 3 1/2 lb stroke seem as though it's 2 to 2 1/2 lbs. On a double action revolver, a 8 lb stroke will seem as though, it's about 5 - 6 lbs...The width of trigger means a lot and contributes to the design.

....Some people don't think or ponder too much about these things and I ,sometimes, don't have many people to divulge these things to anymore.
...In my honest opinion, Firearm Literacy should be a required basic curriculum in our educational system....but the Soccer Moms and the Black Clergy would lodge protests against this silly notion.

["DoubleAction"]

....Something about The Sig Sport Pistols :

....From SIGARMS :

[TMan]

I know this is thread drift, but I'm still thinking of how we could measure the PSI that our trigger finger feels. The trigger gauges give us ft-lbs (or less), but don't take into consideration the width of the trigger.

Some one come up with an idea or perhaps a metric? I'm sure a 3.0 ft-lb trigger with a blade as thin as a razor blade would cut your finger.

I wonder if it is linear - would going from 1/8" to 1/4" have the same effect as going from 1/4" to 3/8"?

["DoubleAction"]

Jul 2, 2011 8:19:08 GMT -5 TMan said:

I know this is thread drift, but I'm still thinking of how we could measure the PSI that our trigger finger feels. The trigger gauges give us ft-lbs (or less), but don't take into consideration the width of the trigger.

Some one come up with an idea or perhaps a metric? I'm sure a 3.0 ft-lb trigger with a blade as thin as a razor blade would cut your finger.

I wonder if it is linear - would going from 1/8" to 1/4" have the same effect as going from 1/4" to 3/8"?

....TMan; After you bought is up, again, I have been wondering about how to calculate the same...It reminds me of the lever & pulley system for reducing the movement & weight of an object....The pull weight measurement vs the actual force applied to the pad of the finger......Try doing this :...Since you have the spring type trigger pull scale, do a normal trigger pull test and then wrap a bandaid over the hook and try doing the test again....?

[TMan]

DA, I don't know what I did with the spring gauge. I use the electronic one all the time now.

Giving it some more thought: how are we as humans measuring trigger pull with our finger? Using your pulley and rope illustration:

We will use a 3 pulley system and two weights of X and 3X. We grasp the rope with one hand, extend our arm fully and lean backwards to lift the weight. Since we are not using any muscle tension, (other than that holding onto the rope), we feel the weight pressing the rope against our hand.

Now we repeat the process with the 3X weight, and ascertain that it is heavier because of the rope pressing harder against our hand.

I think this is what is happening when we pull the trigger. Unlike the spring gauge that is measuring the muscle pull, we are measuring not by the muscle fatigue of a heavier weighted trigger, but by how hard the trigger is pressing against our finger i.e. we are measuring by the feeling in the pad of the finger.

Any thoughts?

["DoubleAction"]

....."Any thoughts? "

.....TMan; "Electronic Computer Finger Tip Sensors" , the kind that might be found in hospitals or Medical Hand Specialist.

...TMan; You mentioned that you have a electronic
gauge ; Maybe you can rig up your own and post the results. Maybe this will create a conversion scale for the wide triggers...If it works.

...Try looping a string to your trigger finger, anchor the gauge to a stationary object, and gauge the pull from the pad of your trigger finger. It might be better to try using a bandaid on the pad to make a comparison.

[TMan]

DA, I'm not aware of any finger sensors that measure pressure. The ones that I've seen measure oxygen or heart rate.

I don't see any way that we can measure it.

We might create a metric by multiplying the width of the trigger by a constant and dividing that into the the gauge reading.

To illustrate: say we have two triggers: 1/4" and 1/2" and we will use 10 as a constant. Since I was looking at a friends Sigma yesterday, we will use its 10lb trigger pull for our example.

For the 1/4": 10 (reading on gauge) / (10 (our constant) x .25 (width of trigger)) = 4

For the 1/2": !0 / (10 x .5) = 2

Why am I on the computer when I haven't even put the coffee on yet?

["DoubleAction"]

...TMan; I had surgery on my hand and one of my fingers, by a hand surgeon, at Piedmont Hospital in Atlanta, a few years ago, and they have sensors to measure touch and nerve sensitivity. I also had electronic sensors scan the sensitivity of the nerves, leading from my spine to my legs, before I had my back surgery.

...For the Do It Yourself, the weight of the trigger shoe might also play a role.

....You are the mathematician and the calculator on this project; I'm just a rigger and an improviser. ;D

....I'm still thinking and pondering on this ;D

....I also like to show the facts of my case to erase any doubts, by the non-believers and the skeptics.

["DoubleAction"]

The median nerve, which is involved in carpal tunnel syndrome, gives sensation to the thumb, index finger, long finger, and half of the ring finger on the palm side.

orthoinfo.aaos.org/topic.cfm?topic=a00069

....TMan; I think that I have arrived to a conclusion : Sensitivity to touch - The placement of a wider surface, on the pad of the index finger, creates more strength on the index finger's pad and less discomfort on the median nerve.

....How does that sound ?

[TMan]

Dr. DA, I think you are really on to something there. I may have mentioned before that around 30 years ago I had two tumors cut out of my right hand. They were close together, with one on the palm just below the index finger and the other actually on the index finger.

Since then, part of my index finger has been numb. The part close to the thumb has no feeling all along the finger from the nail to the second joint. It is like the finger is cut in half - there is feeling on the lower half. I'm wondering if my trigger finger is more sensitive on that lower half than it would have been without the surgery.

I was a little upset with the surgeon. When I went back for a checkup, he stuck a straight pin hard enough that it bled, but I got no feeling. I told him that I sure was glad that I hadn't come to him to be circumcised.

["DoubleAction"]

....TMan; If not for my Colt Detective 38 Specials, with their very narrow, heavy double action triggers, and their painful discomfort of firing 50 rds, from them, I would not have anything to compare this pain too.....The Colt Detective Specials has very narrow triggers and they are anything but a target shooters; strictly for carry & defense.....Every time I think about the Wide Triggers and their comfort, I also think about the Colt Detective Specials and the punishment on the pad of my index finger.

.....I don't think that there is another way to describe this, without having had hands on experience in making the two comparisons on your own hand.....We both know this to be fact, the problem is,...Proving The Case in a Court of Logic, among our peers and fellow Gun Enthusiasts ;D

["DoubleAction"]

...TMan; On the Pad of your trigger finger, is pad sensitive to touch or is it numb ?

[5ontarget]

As you guys have already noted, there is going to be a perceived difference in pulling a 4lb trigger with a wide trigger and a 4lb trigger with a narrow trigger. While the force to pull the trigger is measured the same on an instrument, it feels different due to the contact area. Take a nail or a pin, place the point on your skin, and then place a 1/4 to 1lb weight on top of it. Next just place the weight on the same place. Of course the nail felt stronger/hurt more. It is not always as simple as measuring forces. Force per area is a factor in many applications.
So, if you know the width and the length of the area of contact with your finger (it should be close to the length and width of the trigger), and you have the force of pull measured, then you can come up with your force/area calculation. (lb/in^2, g/cm^2 or whatever you want)