Cocked and Locked - Legal Issues

[TBT]

XavierBreath said:

The reason I chose the LDA for carry was the legal issues of C&L carry for a CCW.

Xavierbreath mentioned this in the "Question for DoubleAction Thread" and I have seen it mentioned a few other times here as well.

I carry cocked and locked all the time so this is of some concern to me. What legal issues are there? How serious are the issues? Should I be carrying with the hammer down?

[Data]

I believe Ive asked the same question before and didnt really get a satisfactory answer.

I eventually did some research myself and found a couple opnionions.

"The thinking, as I understand this ise of a DAO pistol, is to forestall or be able to overcome arguments made by attorneys in criminal and civil proceedings. The arguments run along the lines of something like this: The operator recklessly, "cocked" or failed to lower the raised hammer (after the initial shot or shots were fired) and the failure to do either of these actions was the direct cause of a negligent discharge, which in turn injured or killed my clients famly".

or you can simply substitue "wrecklessly took the saftey off...." and "fired the one shot"... yadda yadda yadda.

The arguments may or may not be valid based on circumstances and the DAO semi-automatic is seen, to me, as simply an attempt to provide a mechanical answer and defense that is easy for a jury to understand".


My .02 cents is that I never put my finger in the trigger guard of a 1911 until Im ready to shoot. The design of the weapon is such that one need not have their finger placed on the trigger ahead of time. The form, function, and trigger of a properly tuned 1911 assure accurate combat shots even whem pulling your finger off the side of the slide and placing on the trigger and quickly depressing the trigger all in one motion. The SA 1911 system is essentiall "anti-flinch" making this possible. Since I practice this way, teach others this way, and always rest my finger on the slid otherwise...an acciental discharge due to "Stress" could not result. The reason it is impossible is that if tention caused me to squeeze harder, I would only be pressing against the slide and frame of the gun...not the trigger. The trigger would only be depressed at the moment I made a conscious effort to shoot....taking my finger off the slide and placing it on the trigger. The shot was NOT UNINTENTIONAL. I realize the prosecution attorney can sight case after case of this phonemon with police and civilians alike. My response is simply that they all had one thing in common, poor gun handling skills, poor training, and a fatal error of resting their finger on the trigger.....all of those accidntal discharges could have been prevented if only those LEOs and civilians ahd used the proper technique that I just described...the technique that I always use.

[XavierBreath]

Data pretty much said it all in a nutshell. In my area of the US, there would likely be no problem with using a 1911. There would likely be no civil case as the attorneys could not make enough money to cover their usual fees.

Nevertheless, it's something that i do not want to gamble on if I don't have to. If my life, liberty and bank account are in the hands of 12 gun ignorant jurors, I don't want a DA with political aspirations to use me as a stepping stone to his future. If I can make it more difficult for him, I will.

[TBT]

So unless I am misunderstanding you guys, the main concern is an “accidental discharge” of the firearm correct? This has no bearing with someone who lawfully uses their firearm in self-defense correct?

My concern was that the argument was being made in courts that someone who carried “cocked and locked” had intent to use the weapon or something absurd like that.

Just throwing this out there though … how would a “cocked and locked” 1911 discharge any more readily by accident than say a firearm such as a Glock or a PM9 that does not boast a manual safety? Wouldn’t a cocked and locked 1911 still be safer in the way of accidental discharge prevention?

[Data]

During stress one has the propensity towards increased tension on a trigger. Somthing like a Ruger GP100 would most likely not be discharged by accident but somthing like a 1911 could be.

Like wise this is already an issue with Glocks and other DA/SA hand guns.

[TBT]

Data said:

During stress one has the propensity towards increased tension on a trigger. Somthing like a Ruger GP100 would most likely not be discharged by accident but somthing like a 1911 could be.

Like wise this is already an issue with Glocks and other DA/SA hand guns.

Tension on the trigger will override the manual safety on a 1911? I have a Kimber Ultra Carry II.

Not that I would have my finger on the trigger before I was ready to fire.

[XavierBreath]

I'm sorry, apparently you misunderstood.

A gun ignorant jury is likely to accept an unscupulous attorney's argument that cocking a gun is tantamount to premeditation. Nevermind that C&L is the accepted safe carry mode of a 1911. The gun ignorant jury will believe the lawyer they like the most, not the one who is correct in his or her argument. Trials by jury are not won on factual evidence, but on persuasion. That is the reality of the courts. DAO takes away one means of persuading a jury.

[TBT]

XavierBreath said:

I'm sorry, apparently you misunderstood.

A gun ignorant jury is likely to accept an unscupulous attorney's argument that cocking a gun is tantamount to premeditation. Nevermind that C&L is the accepted safe carry mode of a 1911. The gun ignorant jury will believe the lawyer they like the most, not the one who is correct in his or her argument. Trials by jury are not won on factual evidence, but on persuasion. That is the reality of the courts. DAO takes away one means of persuading a jury.

So my concern is accurate. They could claim intent to use by carrying cocked and locked.

Next question ... is it an option in your opinion to carry either half-cocked or lowered hammer?

[XavierBreath]

TBT said:

So my concern is accurate. They could claim intent to use by carrying cocked and locked.

First, thanks for the flattery, but don't consider my opinion to be anything other than another fellow's opinion. I am no expert and no authority. As far as I know, C&L carry has never been used to put an innocent man behind bars in a justifiable shooting. I just don't want to be the first in today's nutty criminal justice system.

TBT said:

Next question ... is it an option in your opinion to carry either half-cocked or lowered hammer?

In my opinion, a great big hairy NO. Carrying a SA pistol at half cock or hammer down on a chambered round not only makes the weapon much less effective defensively, but is inherently unsafe in the means of placing it in this condition. Carrying it hammer down on an empty chamber is much safer, and the gross motor movement of racking the slide is easier to accomplish under stress than cocking the hammer.

Still, the safest, most effective means of carrying a SA pistol is Cocked and Locked. (Note PISTOL, not Revolver!) As far as the safety aspect, you have to consider your safety once under attack as well. If you cannot use your weapon effectively, you are not safe. IMHO, a SA 1911 carried C&L is the safest handgun, as well as the most effective handgun in existance in a gunfight. It's after the gunfight that problems may arise. When I am carrying a 1911, it is cocked & locked. I keep a C&L 1911 in my car. When I open carry while tending to my property, I carry a Government Model C&L. It's when I go to concealment that I like the shaved hammer and smooth backside of my Paraordnance. If I had not won that pistol, I would likely carry a Commander concealed, C&L.

The only issue with C&L carry in my opinion is how a imaginative attorney may try to twist it around in front of an uninformed jury. If you think you will be able to explain the mode of carry to ignorant disinterested jurors with an attorney disputing your every word, then more power to you. C&L carry has not yet become a deciding issue in the courts. Cocking a SA/DA handgun has, however.... It's just something to think about.

[TBT]

Why is it unsafe to carry a 1911 with the hammer down with a chambered round? Probably a stupid question but hey ... I'm on a roll today!

Thanks for all the info by the way ...

[XavierBreath]

TBT said:

Why is it unsafe to carry a 1911 with the hammer down with a chambered round?

It's not inherently unsafe to CARRY a true 1911 with the hammer down on a chambered round, but it IS inherently unsafe to lower the hammer into place with a round in the chamber. The half cock notch supposedly catches the hammer if it should slip while lowering it, but the whole issue begs the question........if you trust the half cock notch, why not trust the thumb safety and carry it C&L?

Note: On some pseudo1911s such as the Star pistols, with the hammer down the firing pin protrudes past the breech, making them unsafe to carry at all in this manner. On these pistols, the firing pin would be resting on the primer.

[TBT]

Gottcha ... I'm good on cocked and locked carry.