PART I : Holding trigger when releasing the slide?

[TMan]

Just when you thought you had heard everything: while at the range last week we got to discussing triggers jobs. One of the members mentioned that he had a 1911 that he had taken to a gunsmith to do a trigger job on it.

When he got it back from the gunsmith, he was told to hold the trigger depressed when releasing the slide to load the first round. At first my heart jumped into my throat, but then I thought about it. When I fire the pistol, the slide is always returning before I release the trigger.

I have the Taurus disconnector spring just a little too light. If I use a snap cap, and I let the slide slam home, the hammer will drop to the safety notch. If I have a live round, it doesn't do it. With a snap-cap, if I hold the trigger depressed and let the slide slam into battery, the hammer cocks as normal.

So, should I pull the Taurus apart again to add a little more disconnector pressure, or pull the trigger before letting the slide go home?


Edited to "Part One"

[5ontarget]

I'm not much of a gunsmith, nor do I own a 1911 (really building my credibility, aren't I) but I remember reading a while back that there is a chance of a 1911 going full auto when dropping the slide on a live round, if you don't hold the trigger back.

here's something similar to what I read.
www.gunsmith.fuselier.com/AUTO1911.HTML

[TA]

Holding the trigger back may or may not be a useful technique for some reason, I do not know. BUT, it violates one of the primary safety rules.

Finger off the trigger until the intended target is in your sights.

In competition, this will send you home with a DQ (disqualification for unsafe handling).

[TA]

From the USPSA Rulebook:

FOURTH LAW... KEEP YOUR FINGER OFF THE TRIGGER UNTIL
YOUR SIGHTS ARE ON THE TARGET!
Almost all of the accidental discharges during a match are caused by placing
a finger on the trigger when not ready to fire.
Some examples: Finger on trigger during reloading, during movement, during
the draw, and during jam clearing have all led to accidental dischargess and disqualifications.
Finger on the trigger during reloading or movement calls for instant
disqualification (you don’t have to AD) and two ROs are watching for just that.

[MLB]

That's enough reason for me to find another way. Don't compromise your rules of safety to compensate for a flaw in design / tuning. Just my $0.02 from another without a 1911 ;D

[TMan]

Very interesting information guys. It does make sense that if you have the trigger depressed, you are in the same condition as you are after firing a round. However, as was pointed out - you don't have the sights on the target.

It gave me pause when I thought about it.

The article that 5OT gave the link to was interesting. I do have the problem that with a snap-cap in the Taurus, if I let the slide slam home, the hammer will drop to the safety notch. It has never done it at the range with a live round. It must have to do with the weight of the live round being a lot heavier than the snap cap. However, when I load a snap-cap and then a live round, after shooting the round, the hammer is still on the full cock notch. Oh, after writing that, I now understand: it is because after shooting the live round, the snap-cap has been loaded before I ever get my finger off the trigger.

Also, from reading the article, I now understand why people want light (meaning weight of trigger, not trigger pull) triggers on 1911's. I don't understand why it would prevent going full auto by just holding the trigger before releasing the slide. I could see where it might prevent an accidental discharge of the first round, but not the whole magazine. Am I missing something.

As a side note, which doesn't weight its own thread, my shooting buddy shot my Sig P210 today. He bled from the hammer hitting him. I shot it too, being very careful, but I was still flinching. Then we shot the S&W 952, and he said that his group was the best he ever shot with a handgun. I did quite well after a few fliers from still flinching after shooting the P210.

[MLB]

Interesting info in 5OT's link, BUT IT'S SO DARN DIFFICULT TO READ 2 PAGES OF TECHNICAL DISCUSSION IN CAPS!

Sorry, just another pet peeve of mine...

[TMan]

CAPS bother me too, but I guess it is because I'm a shifty person.

["DoubleAction"]

When the slide is out of battery, or to the rear, the disconnector plate is positioned below that of the sear. This is because the center rail of the slide pushes down on the disconnector when the slide begins it's rearward travel, either by manual or auto ejection.

With the disconnector in the lower position, disconnecting the trigger to the sear, the rearward position of the trigger retains the disconnector in the lower position until the trigger is released to allow the disconnector to rise into position with the slide in battery.

Something Called Trigger Bounce

When using a lighter mainspring, heavier than factory recoil spring (more than 16 lbs.), a light tuned sear spring, zero trigger take up and shortened hammer hooks in order to obtain a very light target grade trigger, something stands to happen when the slide goes into battery with the disconnector, hammer, and sear. As the slide completes it's in battery travel, the disconnector also rises into position after the hammer is cocked; any sudden jolt can cause the trigger to bounce against the disconnector, which is in contact with the sear while the trigger is in it's forward position. The only time the trigger will be in it's forward position during a slide cycle is when manually chambering the first round of a loaded magazine.

Holding the trigger to the rear only keeps the disconnector out of contact with the sear, until released, after the slide goes into battery; it does not prevent the hammer from following the slide and has no effect on the sear, since the disconnector is sitting below the sear when the trigger is to the rear.

By holding the trigger on a Series 80 trigger, when chambering the first round, it defeats the passive firing pin safety which is incorporated into the fire control system.

Holding the trigger, or not, the half cock notch should catch the hammer if it jumps over the sear hooks. For this reason, I always prefer a half cock notch with a center leg in order to prevent damage to the sear nose. (Edited : See message below) The half cock notch cannot catch the hammer if the trigger is pulled.

Safety is the key note of addressing potential problems, which might occur when altering a factory installed trigger system. I have weighted dummy cartridges for testing the safety reliability of the lighter triggers before proceeding to live shooting.

[TMan]

DA, I won't tell you how many times I re-read your post. Food for thought and now I'm stuffed. I didn't even eat that much for Thanksgiving. ;D

The Springfield works great letting the slide slam home with a snap-cap, but the Taurus will fall to the safety notch. On the Taurus, if I hold the trigger in when I let go of the slide, the trigger doesn't drop to the safety notch. Also, with live ammo in the Taurus it never drops to the safety notch. What is going on here?

You mentioned "zero trigger take-up". That certainly is not the case with the Taurus and that is the only thing I don't like about the trigger is that there is quite a bit of take-up. Is zero take-up a no-no? Do you need a certain amount slack in the system?

I like your idea of weighted dummy rounds. If I take a fired case, and seat a bullet in it, would that be enough or do you need to add something to be equivalent to the weight of the powder?

[MLB]

I'd think that the powder weight would be negligable, since there is at least that much variation in available bullet weights.

["DoubleAction"]

The half cock notch cannot catch the hammer if the trigger is pulled.

I kind of goofed when I wrote that; the thought came to me a few minutes ago on it. Because the disconnector is below the sear when the trigger is in the rearward position, the sear is free to act upon it's own in maintaining tension on the hammer hooks. If, at this time the hammer hooks jump over the sear, the half cock notch should catch the sear nose before allowing the hammer to strike the firing pin.

The only time I had a 1911 go into full auto was after I manually chambered the first round on my Commander, with my finger off the trigger. The sear obviously jumped over the hooks and the half cock notch, and continued to do so until the magazine was empty.

I had the sear jump the hooks on the first round once, in Vietnam ( puzzled me for years about it ) and another time with my Wilson CQB, but the half cock notch caught the hammer on the Wilson. All three times was when I had my finger off the trigger.

TMan; If the sear is jumping the hooks on your Taurus, try putting more tension on the sear leg of the sear spring ( first leg).

I ordered some weighted dummy rounds from Brownell's a few years ago but the bullet didn't come with a crimped case with caused many bullets to seat deeper into the case. You can make your own if your use something to substitute for the powder weight.
I have read where some Smiths test their action jobs by letting the slide fall on an empty chamber; I don't agree to that line of thought with my pistols.

["DoubleAction"]

I have something else to add on this topic, since it is one which involves liability on the user's part in the safe handling of firearms.

I've read several books by various gunsmiths and gun writers on this same topic, some being quite expert in their opinion. One particular, high known, pistolsmith who made his carrer and sucess of custom building the 1911 made a statement in one of his books, and I quote, "Anytime you shoot the gun dry, drop the magazine, slide in the new magazine, then holding the trigger back,trip the slide's release with your left thumb and there you go. It's totally safe- excatly the way the gun was designed to operate."

After this one particular, highly known, pistolsmith began manufacturing his own line of 1911s he recommened to his customers not to put the finger on the trigger during loading.

This is, and continues to be, an issue which plagues the fire control system of the 1911 and our non compromising requirements for the safe handling of all firearms. As I have already mentioned; holding the trigger in will not prevent hammer follow( although some might argue that it helps to prevent trigger bounce). If one is holding the trigger in, while experiencing hammer follow, with an accidental discharge, one will be found at fault by holding one's finger on the trigger, even if it has nothing to do with the cause which was otherwise the reason for the discharge. Nothing is accidental if one's finger is on the trigger. Enough said; I hope I did not bore anyone with my ramblings on this.

["DoubleAction"]

Whew; This is a Oldie But Goody; Thanks 5ontarget for bringing to my attention.

Revisited

[MLB]

I didn't realize that the thread was 3 years old. Confused me when I saw my own comments that I didn't remember making. Thanks for resurrecting this one!

["DoubleAction"]

Rather than go through my own 5,000. messages, I went 5ontarget's Profile and pulled up his messages; since he was the one to mention it. ;D