??? The Top Plastic Handgun ???

[taliyev]

Up to this point I have been ignoring handguns with plastic frames. I was enjoying collecting and shooting all metal guns for years now. Now it looks like plastic bug has finally got me…

Years back the plastic world was not particularly big. Glock was the king and love it or hate it , no match competition was around to choose from. Nowadays world changed. Everywhere I look I see plastic guns…..any size…any brand…any caliber…

The question I have now : WHAT IS THE TOP PLASTIC HUNDGUN? When I look at prices HK guns seem to be most expensive…(or may be I am wrong?). Glocks are still there… a bit modified but still the same… Walther seems to be nice…. New plastic Beretta does not look bad either. Then we have all those Springfield XDs… FNs…CZs e.t.c…

So… What is the consensus? If I ought to get only one plastic gun, what should it be?

Any opinions? To avoid caliber difference discussions let’s stay with 9mm guns…

[TMan]

I didn't have to think about it very long. If I had to get rid of my plastic guns, the last one to go would be the Springfield XD. FYI I have an H&K Elite too along with a Glock 34, Baby Eagle, SP-21, and probably others that I just can't think of at this point.

The trick with plastic guns is having them fit your hand properly.

If money wasn't an object, I'd go for the S&W M&P, but that is just because I'm impressed with my M&P MP15 (AR-15 clone). The design looks good. It has a 6.5lb striker-fired system, which is the same as my XD.

Modified to reflect availability of the M&P.

["DoubleAction"]

TMan; For awhile the HK USP was very popular but I haven't heard anyone come in with any input on the pistol on this forum in quite some time. Of course, we don't have a large crownd in here at one given time either. I've always been curious about the HK Mark 23 Expert and the Glock 17C.

[TMan]

DA, I considered the H&K USP several times. The problem was that it just didn't fit well in my hand.

I always felt that the Mark 23 was targeted for the Military, which justifies the cost i.e. I think it is overpriced. However, if you look at their web-site, you will not that its availability is "Limited". Things that are limited means that the manufacturer is not making money based on large quantities sold with small mark-ups.

www.hk-usa.com/index.jsp?loc=101&SITEID=A&PartNumber=723001

Also, it is 45 ACP vs 9 mm Luger.

I haven't been to the H&K web-site in awhile. I just noticed that they no longer list the Expert or Elite.

Prior to getting the Glock G34 I had tried to get the 17CC, which was the compensated, competition model. My dealer had no success, so she called Smyrna. They told her that it was no longer in production and to tell her customer to get the Model 34.

However, the top of the slide on the 34 is open, so I put a compensated barrel in it, which promptly fried the front sight. So, I went back to the original barrel and put a fiber-optic sight on it.

Glock considers the 17L to be their current competition model with its 6" barrel vs. the 4.5" barrel on the 17C and the 5.3" barrel on the 34. The 17L and 34 both have a listed trigger pull of ~4.5lbs vs. the ~5.5lbs on the 17C.

Although I'm a big fan of compensators on X-frames, on a 9mm? If you are shooting in competition, the compensator, even on a 22LR, will get you back on target quicker, but I think of compensators in terms of controlling muzzle flip. "What's that imprint on your forehead?" "Oh, that's from the front-sight on my revolver." I still have no desire for the S&W 500 or their ultra-lights. The M&P in 9mm...

The thing that has discouraged me from the M&P is their advertised trigger pull of ~6.5lbs, which is a pound heavier than the Glock 17C. However, my Springfield XD is breaking at ~6lbs, and I have no problems with that weight. I think it is because of the clean break.

I never realized how much the over-travel on the Glock affected the feel of the trigger. The modification to eliminate the over-travel made an incredible difference. Someone that only owned and shot Glocks would be so used to the trigger it wouldn't bother them. Me? It bothered me a lot.

Incidentally, my dealer double-checked and my long-slide STI isn't going to be available until middle of August vs. the middle of July, which is when she thought it would be ready.

["DoubleAction"]

TMan; I know how you are in preferring light trigger pulls for your target shooters. The Glock Law Enforcement video that I have gives attention to the Glock 17C as having a factory 3 1/2 lb. trigger pull; I could live with that. As for compensators on semi-autos, I have but only two pistols with comps in my SIG 229 Sport pistols. Compared to the non compensated SIG 229, the Sport pistols have far less muzzle flip than the Sport pistols when shooting the 357 sig cartridge. However; The Sport pistols also have a heavier stainless frame verses the alloy frame of the P-229.

During the short length of time which we have been on this forum there have been many models discontinued by various manufacturers, which is one reason I always browse the used counter sections. I have seen the HK USP Expert priced at $1300. but I'm not that curious to see what's behind the image without shooting one first. I know if I liked the Expert, I would want the Mark 23 but after seeing what happened with the discontinuance of the P7 I don't think I would invest much into a pistol which I might one day not find parts for.

Springfield's XD seems to be one to look at other than the Glock. I've fired a small Glock chambered in the .45 ACP and it wasn't too bad. It takes a really bad gun for me to form a bad opinion, and I just cannot say anything negative about the Glock other than the fact that I prefer hammers for my own carry pistols.

The aftermarket industry seems to cater more to that of the Glock than any of the others, which I find is a plus in making a good gun better.

[TMan]

DA, I understand the desire for hammers, but what I've found out with these striker-fired pistols is that if it doesn't go bang, it is only a small amount of movement to "re-cock" so you can pull the trigger again.

S&W advertises the M&P as DAO, but it is no more DAO than the Glock. To me DAO says that if it fails to fire, I can pull the trigger again and it will try again.

I went to my dealer's today to do some water testing on her pool. She is having algae problems and is a new pool owner (I probably paid for her pool). Her biggest problems is her kids going swimming in neighbors pools and then coming home and swimming in their pool. I told her that their swim-suits needed to be washed and dried prior to going into her pool.

While I was there, she had a S&W M&P 40, which is not a caliber that I stock/shoot (my garage is a big enough mess). I looked it over real well and dry-fired it a couple of times. The 4 guys on the S&W team that designed this pistol did a good job (saw them on TV once). The safety on the trigger doesn't have the strong spring that the Glock has. Also, I couldn't feel any over-travel. It comes with 2 extra back-straps, but the one on the pistol fit my hand well.

As I've mentioned numerous times before, my Springfield XD measures 6.5lbs on my scale, but I've always liked the trigger in spite of the heavy pull because it was crisp. Remember I borrowed my instructors XD, which I'd shot before, to take my CHL test. I would compare the M&P trigger to the XD's trigger. Remember when they came out with the XD and a lot of writers said that it out-Glocked the Glock? Well in my opinion (I've never been humble), I'd say the M&P out XD's the XD.

Now considering all that I've said, did I order a 9mm one?

[Fobos]

I'm a big fan of the Glock. I've owned several and still have two, and there are some other models I plan on acquiring.

Have owned: 17C (my first handgun), 22, 27
Currently own: 17, 20
Wishlist: 17L, 21, 30 (or 36)

From experience I can tell you that their accuracy is underrated. If you can get past their ugliness and their ergos they are quite a reliable and smooth piece of equipment, even with minimal maintenance. In my 3-gun matches last summer I think I outperformed all of the 1911 shooters with my Glock 17. If I could have only one handgun in my collection, it would be the versatile G20.

[TMan]

Fobos, I've never been accurate with the 34 until this last modification of adding the Ghost Rocket Connector. It eliminated, or at least greatly reduced, my lousy trigger control. What surprised me, and my shooting buddy, was the results. It wasn't quite as tight a group as I've gotten with some other pistols, but I only shot 50 rounds too. I was impressed with the precision (proud of me using the correct term MLB?).

[TBT]

As far as what I've shot the XD would tops for plastic. The ergos are perfect and the trigger is the best I've felt on a plastic gun. I just wish they made the inbetween sizes that the Glock does for carry.

[MLB]

The only two I've fired enough to have an intelligent opinion on are the G21 and the P99. I'd like to say that Walther has it hands down, but I really can't. On ergonomics, appearance the Walther is the easy choice, but saying that it looks and feels better than a Glock is no great accomplishment ;D

The Glock has never had a malfunction I've seen in over 2 years of shooting it. I can't say the same with the P99. That's what really counts. My accuracy with each is about the same, but the Walther in .40 kicks more than the Glock which is a .45. The 9mm is likely much more tame. I've only shot the 9mm once (BlackDog's).

[ikiddp5]

10 Excellent polymer guns (in the right order):

1- HK USP
2- Walther P99
3- Beretta PX4
4- HK 2000
5- Sig Pro
6- Styer M-A1
7- SW M&P
8- FN P9
9- Glock 19
10- Springfield XD

[TMan]

ikiddp5, welcome to the forum. I found the order that you placed the polymer guns interesting.

Your mention of the Steyr M-A1 sent me looking for their web-site, but what really surprised me was your placement of the Springfield XD at the bottom of the list. I'm curious what the rationale was for that.

I've thought about getting a Beretta PX4, but I'd like to hold one in my hand to see how it feels prior to ordering one. It would be nice to be able to dry-fire it too. Trigger feel varies a lot with these pistols.

[ikiddp5]

Hi TMan: About the rationale of the list, there were several factors analized to get to that order. Quality, finish, durability, reliability, comfortability (shooting and carrying), accuracy, safety, technical innovation, etc. Don't get me wrong, I think any of them is an excellent weapon, I have shoot them all and they are superb handguns. In respect the XD, there has been many issues with the finnish and the durability of some small parts, you know that it is a Croatian made gun, they may not have the quality control of German or American guns. I know that Springfield has corrected several issues and is commited to deliver a fine gun but we'll have to wait a little before getting it up the list...

[ikiddp5]

8 more good Polymer handguns (in no particular order):

1- CZ 100
2- Ruger P95
3- SW9
4- Taurus 24/7
5- Tanfoglio Carry F Pro
6- Polymer Baby Desert Eagle
7- Kahr P9
8- Kimber KPD

[TMan]

Sometimes I'm just evil: you left off Hi-Point from your list. They make a polymer frame model too. ;D

I was surprised in disappointed when I received my Baby Eagle that I ordered. I was expecting a metal frame and received a polymer one. I shot it some before putting it into storage. It had this weird thing: if you started to get tired and limp-wristed the thing, it would still work, but it looked like the slide was operating in slow-motion and wouldn't lock open after the last round.

Someday, after my wife goes on another jewelry buying spree, and I can't think of anything else to buy, I will buy a Hi-Point in spite of their horrible triggers.

One of the things that I seem to forget is that when we talk about plastic guns, some of them are striker-fired and some have hammers. If looking at plastic guns, (oh, my polymer roof is holding up well, by the way) I think we should group them in striker-fired vs conventional hammer groups.

[MLB]

Now there would be a worthy project for TMan; take your average off-the-shelf Hi-Point and see if he can attain a 2 lb trigger. ;D

One of the points that I'd like to improve on my P99 is the "squishy" trigger. I believe that it stems from the plastic parts. I haven't found any source of metal replacement trigger parts. If only I had a metal shop with a CNC machine.... and the skill to use it.

[TMan]

Well dog my cats, I thought the P99 had a hammer like the P22 does. After your post, I went and looked at the Walther web-site and saw that it was striker fired.

Lightning-fast firing
The Quick Action trigger system: The striker is partially pre-cocked and when the trigger is pulled, the striker is fully cocked and released, firing the pistol. The trigger travel is approximately .31 inches with a trigger force of approximately 8 lbs. This short pull with its quick reset provides quick shot delivery especially in competitive situations.

8 lbs? Are they serious? Put a thousand rounds through it and you will be able to pull 16 penny nails out of hardwood with your fingers.

Another interesting thing, to me, looking at their web-site: the only Walther currently listed that I don't own is the P99. Of the older stuff, I don't own the P-5, but do own a P1, which I do like.

I see that SOG has the P-5 for $460 plus $15 for handpicked. I'm not willing to lay down that much for something sight unseen.

[MLB]

"The Walther P99" is about as descriptive as "The Kimber 1911" - neither gives you enough info about the handgun you are discussing. There are about 5 different trigger configurations that were available at one time or another. Walther's website is notoriously out of date, although it's better now that it's run by S&W.

Mine is an older model which is a traditional DA/SA for the most part. The version you described (QA) is their Glock-like trigger. They discontinued this version for a while, but I understand that it's available once again, now designated as an "AS" (anti-stress).

Other versions were the QPQ, which I think was a more traditonal DAO, and the infamous WTF. This verision was sold to those who didn't care which one they got. ;D

[ikiddp5]

I own a P5C and it's one of the best made 9mm compact handguns. In fact is one of my CCW choices along with a Sig 239.
Sorry I didn't include the Hi-Point, I haven't fired one yet, neither the Kimber KPD but have good reports of it . I don't have much experience with the handguns of the second list, that's why I can't put them in order....yet...

[TBT]

In respect the XD, there has been many issues with the finnish and the durability of some small parts, you know that it is a Croatian made gun, they may not have the quality control of German or American guns. I know that Springfield has corrected several issues and is commited to deliver a fine gun but we'll have to wait a little before getting it up the list...

The finish I've heard that they fixed though I've never had any issues with the finish nor has my sister whom lives by that gun. I've also not heard of any durability issues that excede the issues of any of the other guns on the list. The XD has been thus far as durable as any gun made.