Part II : Depressing trigger when releasing slide?

[TMan]

Unless you are smoking fast, after pulling the trigger, the slide will return and chamber a round before you ever release the trigger.

So while at the range the other day, someone, whom I don't have the highest regard for, was showing off his "custom trigger job". He handed me the empty gun with the slide locked back and told me to go ahead and dry fire it. I pulled back on the slide and provided some resistance with my thumb to its closing (I don't like the slide to slam home on an empty chamber). In spite of this, the hammer still followed the slide. I looked at him over the top of my glasses (learned that from my late mom). He then said: "Didn't you have the trigger pulled when you let the slide go?". I informed him that I didn't and he proceeded to educate me by telling me that according to his gunsmith that did the trigger job, on a custom trigger like this you should always have the trigger pulled when releasing the slide.

Anyone else heard this or practice it? It doesn't make a lot of sense to me becaue the sear should have the hammer captured no matter what the position of the trigger is.

[MLB]

According to my limited knowledge, your finger stays off the trigger until you're ready to fire.


Well, ok, unless you've went to the dark side and are dissasembling a Glock.

["DoubleAction"]

WARNING : Disclaimer

TMan; That is the answer to my riddle that has long been haunting me about hammer follow. I followed the answer to that riddle, ever since I heard about my third cousin WWII having his leg shot off while chambering the first round on his .45 pistol. I found out about it by reading mounds of books and by studying the inner mechanical functions about the pistol.

The clue rest on the fact that only time the trigger is not depressed to rear, is when chambering the first round. Every round after the first, is chambered by the recoil of the slide, from the blow back of the internal gases. This is reason that The 1911 is called an auto loader or a self feeding pistol.

It would better to illustrate the action of trigger components by using pictures, that I have in our "Functional" illustrations. These images were taken by myself a few years ago.

This shows the trigger being out of battery, take notice how the disconnect paddle is not touching the sear, as trigger is depressed to the rear. By pulled trigger to the rear, is keeps the disconnector from rising into position when the slide slams home.

The following shows the disconnector rising into the cut out in the slide'

The following illustration shows the position of the sear, disconnector, hammer, and trigger, when the pistol is ready to fire.

You can see this with your own pistol; With the pistol unloaded, and the magazine well empty, cock hammer and dry fire pistol but don't let your trigger finger let go, keep your trigger depressed to the rear; Now manually rack the slide, As If you are you are going through the motions of chambering the first round, while keeping trigger depressed to the rear.

With the still pulled to rear, hammer cocked, listen for the disconnector making it's click, as it's rising into position with the sear.

doubleactionii.multiply.com/photos/album/13/Functional_Descriptions#photo=1

TMan; You were right by not letting the slide slam home on a empty chamber, the recoil of the slide is meant to have enough power to strip a cartridge from a magazine. Letting go, as a sure way to mess up a good trigger job. How did I do ?

WARNING : Disclaimer

[TMan]

unless you manually take it upon yourself to do so before hand

I hope that is this cold that is effecting my thinking and not that I've become cronically stupid.

I'm still not grasping how keeping the trigger pulled when manually releasing the slide would prevent the hammer from following the slide. From your explanation, and what I remember from the last time I was inside a 1911, the disconnector couples the trigger to the sear when the slide is in battery. It has nothing to do with the sear holding onto the hammer.

Therefore, I don't understand why it would make any difference when you let the slide go if you had the trigger pulled or not. Could there just be more vibration transmitted to the sear from the movement of the disconnector when the trigger is not pulled?

Secondly, assuming the gun is pointed in a safe direction, is it better to pull the trigger before releasing the slide on the first round or is this guy just full of ... well, I know he is, but was his gunsmith full of it too? unless you manually take it upon yourself to do so before hand

["DoubleAction"]

WARNING : Disclaimer

TMan; What causes "Hammer Follow" or "Trigger Bounce", it is when the trigger is not pulled to rear, allowing the disconnector to slam into position with the sear.

The for the "WARNINGS"; Although this might the right way to operate the 1911, this might misunderstood by a lot of people. This clear understanding of the 1911, solved my own problem about 'Hammer Follow" and I have some very light triggers.

WARNING : Disclaimer

["DoubleAction"]

TMan; Have you ever taken a Colt Gold Cup National Match ?

This pistol has what they call a sear depressor, and it's tricky.

The "Sear Depressor" is supposed to prevent "Trigger Bounce" by putting spring pressure on the Sear.

["DoubleAction"]

TMan; Go to the Link and read underneath the pictures. I wrote this before I had my stroke, and it might help. If not; I will always be here when you return. ;D

doubleactionii.multiply.com/photos/album/13/Functional_Descriptions#photo=1

["DoubleAction"]

TMan : "I pulled back on the slide and provided some resistance with my thumb to its closing (I don't like the slide to slam home on an empty chamber)."

You did right thing.


The Gunsmith : "you should always have the trigger pulled when releasing the slide"

The Gunsmith was right


The only thing my Gunsmith told me is to get educated about the pistol.

["DoubleAction"]

I will have to admit, that I wasn't for everyone owning a 1911 because the nature of not knowing how to properly handle the pistol, safely, without incident.

Being the military in a combat zone, allows a young man to learn certain survival skills, one being how to use his head for more than a hat rack.

Cutting to the chase; It was in Vietnam when I learned about "Hammer Follow" with a G.I. 1911A1 Colt .. I was in a culvert late one night when I went to chamber the first round, from a fully loaded magazine. The pistol fired, without me making any attempt to discharge the round. Fortunately, nobody was injured as the result, but it weighed on me for years, and I never got over it. The guy that I passed it onto, had the same problem, but nobody was hurt then.

Many years had passed, until I decided to buy my Colt Combat Commander. I was already well into revolvers, but my ignorance was still lacking the proper safe handling of the 1911. Then one day, I began making trips to see a gun smith about getting some work done on my 1911's. At first, I was trying to get some work done my Colt Officers Model, because it was shooting way too low.

Then one day, I took my Commander to his shop because the firing pin stop was falling out, causing the pistol to lock up. I had already ordered the over sized block from EGW, I just needed someone to fit it.

The gun smith took one look at the Commander and pulled out his own personal carry piece from his holster; He too had the same pistol !
I let him talk into having a few things done to the pistol, one was a trigger job. Back then I spent a good amount of time at the range, and it was no time, that I would find out about "Hammer Follow" again.

Just a reminder; The Commander is designed like the Series 70 and Pre-Dated 1911s from the past, before Colt began installing the firing pin safety levers.

I was at the Range, with my Commander pointing down range, while I began to chamber the first round, all of the sudden the pistol went into full automatic, until the last round was fired. Fortunately, there was no incident, except me having a accidental mishap, due to my own ignorance.

I went back to the gun smith and I told him had happened; I talked a little and he told me that he would check out everything.

He didn't tell me what I did wrong , he just told me that I needed to get educated about the pistol. As soon I picked up my pistol, I began ordering every book, every periodical, and every video that I could find on the 1911. I soon quickly learned how to plant information about the pistol firmly between my ears, after constant reading, looking at the video, and practical applications . That was the best advice the gun smith had told me; and I never went back. Just another bit of information, that before I had the INTERNET to rely on.

handgunforum.proboards.com/index.cgi?board=talking&action=display&thread=3288&page=1

[TMan]

DA, first, I forgot you had a stroke, you sure seem to have fully recovered. My aunt, who was 9 years older than I, had a stroke at 49 and never recovered. She died a year later.

Thanks for all your detailed explanation, and I think I understand. Now in fear I ask the next question: isn't this a flaw in the design of the 1911 because of the close proximity of the disconnector to the sear? I remember looking inside some other guns and the disconnector just kept the trigger bar pressed down and away from the sear.

MLB, if you are reading this, I hope you are sitting down and in a chair with arms so you won't fall out of it.

DA, wouldn't it be a good practice to hold the trigger pulled when releasing the slide on any semi-auto?

Oh, just remembered (first time for everything), you asked me if I'd ever taken the National Match apart. My first Gold Cup was the Trophy, then I bought the Talo National Match, and most recently the Talo National Match in 38 Super. There is a Big Chicken somewhere besides Marietta. In general I don't take my expensive guns apart. I figure if I screw up, it should be on something that doesn't cost very much. So I dive into the Springfield Armory's, the Taurus, the Kimbers, etc., but I treat the Wilson Combat's, the Colt's, and the Les Baer like they belong to someone else.

[MLB]

Sitting down and holding on.

This is one of the better threads we've had in quite a while. I say that because I stand to learn something that is counterintuitive. I would have always advised against fingering any trigger while chambering a round.

I think that generalizing this tidbit to any semiauto is a bit premature, as most are DA/SA. Perhaps the Hi-Power though?

Please continue on, these are gems.

["DoubleAction"]

TMan brought up a very interesting fact about the mechanical operation functions of the 1911; Although it's mechanical design is simple enough for most people to understand, the operation of the pistol requires something else.

Please allow me some time to point out why so called custom triggers jobs is only as good as the parts used; sort like any other performance custom build.

Left : Nowlin / EGW - Right :Colt's Factory

The noticeable difference of the two hammers is the half notch; the Nowlin Hammer has the half-cock notch which is shaped to protect your sear. Combined with the EGW's Ultra-hard sear , this is a good match for a good trigger job.

This brings me to more on the subject on "Hammer Follow".

One while at the shooting range, I had with me, two 1911 pistols and each had Factory Action Tuned Custom Triggers, from Wilson Combat. These was my CQB's; The only difference in these two pistols is the Barrel Lengths and the Magazines. The Shorter CQB Compact has a Shorter Magazine, which won't work in the Full Standard Size 1911.

Now, On To Point of Posting This

While I shooting the Full Size Pistol, I make the mistake of picking up the one of the shorter magazines, not only that, I also failed to hold trigger to the rear, as I prepared to load the chamber, The Slide Fell on an empty chamber and the Hammer Followed was caught by the Half Cock Notch, seen previously , on The Nowlin Hammer.

Thanks TMan for posting this topic, and Thank You Everyone For Joining In.

["DoubleAction"]

WARNING : Disclaimer

One word caution; The 1911 is a pistol that requires a different approach toward your habits of operation. As for my center fired pistols, I limit myself to only two different kinds of semi-autos, auto loaders, or self feeding platforms; The 1911 and The Sig Sauers.

Only once did I fail recognize the difference while chambering the first round or charging the chamber; If you didn't already guess, I pulled trigger to rear while feeding the first round on a Sig Sauer, and the pistol went off while it was pointing down range. That is one of the reasons I have fail to bring the subject on this topic.

With every pistol one acquires, has a different method for operation and safety, the risk level elevates.

["DoubleAction"]

Now in fear I ask the next question: isn't this a flaw in the design of the 1911 because of the close proximity of the disconnector to the sear? I remember looking inside some other guns and the disconnector just kept the trigger bar pressed down and away from the sear.

TMan; The Disconnector on the 1911 actually serves two different purposes, it not only Disconnects the sear when slide is out of battery; It also Connects to Trigger Strut to the Sear when in Battery.

Out Of Battery

In Battery

[5ontarget]

I remember asking DA this question years ago after reading this www.gunsmith.fuselier.com/AUTO1911.HTML
and he cleared up for me. It took me a while to wrap my 2 working neurons around it, but it did finally sink in.
couldn't find the link to the thread about it in this forum. Probably in some thread that I derailed/drifted....but I never do that.

[TMan]

Making progress here, but like MLB, it is opposite what I expected. I thought holding the trigger back when chambering the first round was a bad idea. I now understand why I was wrong. However, I still have a couple more questions based on what you, DA, said:

the Nowlin Hammer has the half-cock notch which is shaped to protect your sear

What is that shape? It looks like it is a little rounded perhaps?

I pulled trigger to rear while feeding the first round on a Sig Sauer, and the pistol went off while it was pointing down range. That is one of the reasons I have fail to bring the subject on this topic.

Whoa, now I really don't understand this. The trigger bar is held down away from the sear by the slide as I recall. I don't have a Sig handy or I'd go look for sure. (Nothing is handy, but that is the subject of another thread).

Also, while shooting the pistol, like on the 1911, the trigger is normally depressed when chambering subsequent rounds. So I don't see why holding the trigger depressed when manually chambering a round would cause the pistol to fire?

The only thing I can think of is that it was actually chambered before you pulled the trigger, which is what I see as a problem with this whole procedure of holding the trigger depressed when chambering a round. If you got out of sequence and released the slide prior to pulling the trigger - BANG!

["DoubleAction"]

the Nowlin Hammer has the half-cock notch which is shaped to protect your sear

What is that shape? It looks like it is a little rounded perhaps?

TMan; If you look this picture, you will Nowlin Hammer provides protection from the sear making it's jump over the Half Cock Notch.

Left : Nowlin / EGW - Right :Colt's Factory

In this side view image, you can plainly see that the sear nose don't actually come into contact with the Half Cock Notch. The sear is actually resting on that "Safety Notch" , thus that provides the extra protection needed to prevent sear damage.

["DoubleAction"]

TMan; When pull the you depress the trigger to the rear, on the Sig Sauer, That deactivates all Fire Control Safeties.

Looking at the Trigger Bar in the picture, you will see that The Trigger is not pulled the Rear or Depressed. Pay close attention to the following item. When the Trigger is Depressed, it will Rise and make contact with the Deactivation Bar, which will Deactivate The Safety Mechanisms within the fire control system.

With this, We seeing the reasoning behind MLB's logic behind depressing the trigger to rear while chambering a the first round of a magazine, on other pistols.

[TMan]

DA, thanks for the half-notch explanation - I missed that on your original post. That is a nice feature of the Nowlin: protecting the sear if the hammer falls to the half-cock notch.

I'm still not clear about the Sig Sauer operation though because I don't understand why holding back the trigger initially would be any different than having it held back during the cycling of subsequent rounds. I wish I had one in front of me to examine.

(Briefly: I'm not buying anything made by HP again. First after 19 months my HP laptop failed (main board). Now the latest is my HP PDA, which is where I kept track of where my guns were stored, along with safe combinations etc. Knowing things fail, I kept backing it up to the old NT 4.0 computer. So, the PDA has failed. No problem I have a back-up, but what good is it unless I go buy another HP PDA to restore it to. &^%#*.)

As far as safeties being defeated when pulling the trigger on the Sig Sauer, wouldn't the same thing be true on a 1911 Series 80? I can't pull my trigger without depressing the grip safety, and if the trigger is pulled back, doesn't that also defeat the firing pin safety?

["DoubleAction"]

As far as safeties being defeated when pulling the trigger on the Sig Sauer, wouldn't the same thing be true on a 1911 Series 80? I can't pull my trigger without depressing the grip safety, and if the trigger is pulled back, doesn't that also defeat the firing pin safety?

TMan; The Grip Safety, when not being depressed, blocks the movement of the Trigger Bow.

The Series 80 Levers works to prevent the movement the Firing Pin. The Series 80 is perhaps the best safest feature to prevent Hammer Follow, because you no longer have to hold the trigger to the rear while chambering the first round.

This how the Thumb Safety works to Block the movement of Sear.