Opinions on Concealed & Carry Choices

["DoubleAction"]

Since the development and rising popularity of the .40 S&W, and smaller lightweight frames of the .357 magnum revolvers, many has altered their options in carry choices. No longer is it a choice between the 9mm or .45acp, or the 38 special and the 380 semi auto, but some still prefer the original standard, as they have for many years. Regardless of the preferred choices, the ammunition companies continue to develope cartridges for the use of self defense, in most popular calibers; No one is left out in the cold.
This is where many of us might change our opinions on what we carry, how we carry it, why we carry what we do, and what a comfortable amount of self protection is required in most normal activities away from home.
I'll join in later, it's getting late for me now. Thanks for any replies.

[Mikolev]

My personal preference has evolved over time. I carried a 9mm for quite a while, but moved on to the .40 caliber after much research. The truth is, I don't trust 9mm, when I have both a .40 caliber EAA Witness, and an XD in .357sig, neither of which are any more difficult to conceal than my Ruger P95. Then again, many will argue that 9mm is quite adequate, especially in +p or +p+ loads. Maybe, but I don't feel comfortable with a round that has to be loaded to +p pressures for so many to justify it as an adequate defense round. Just one man's opinion though.

[XavierBreath]

I'm a believer in the .45ACP's stopping power, as well as the .40S&W. Fears of overpenetration make me turn away from the .357magnum.

My consideration is that my carry gun will be the one I use to stop a threat and preserve my life. I will bring it to bear on a human if it is put to it's ultimate task. As such, my actions will be scutinized and second guessed. I like the .45ACP because I will have to fire less shots to achieve the same result. I believe that the DAO pistol is the best option for a self defense weapon.

In the end what I want is a gun that is concealable, but will allow me to have the greatest impact on a threat with the least shots fired. I want this weapon to be able to withstand a prosecutor's scrutiny, to be accurate, and to be utterly reliable.

For me the gun is the delivery system for the threat stopper, which is 230 grains of JHP. The cartridge comes before the gun for me. Thankfully, there is a .45 pistol that meets my other criteria. If there were not, I'd keep the .45 and compromise elsewhere, (except with reliability).

[tptplayer]

My opinion is that any concealed carry weapon is some sort of compromise. A 12 gauge or fully automatic rifle would provide much more protection than any handgun but are not easy to conceal (to say the least). All of us have different levels of danger where we work and travel. I have at times carried a Glock 22 or recently a S&W 625. But my usual carry weapon is a Kahr PM9 in an IWB Kydex holster. It is small, easy to conceal and comfortable to wear with almost any clothing. I understand we can face deadly danger at any time but I do not have to enter truly dangerous areas. A 9mm is not an insignificant cartridge and it easily controllable in small handgun like a PM9. If I were in an area I felt was dangerous I would carry the PM9 as a backup to a larger handgun.

[Ricochet]

I do not yet have a Carry License, so to date my considerations have been for home defense, range practice, something in the truck when I'm on the road, and just plain fun.

However, this is an interesting thread to review one another's current thinking for CCW. Plus I may be going for the Carry License in the near future. ;D So, let's hear from a few more of you guys.

[ThePaul]

I have only been carrying in Texas for about 6 months. During that time I have been carrying a USP Compact .40, the varient that is DA/SA and has a decocker. I love this weapon but during the summer I a looking for something a little bit smaller to wear with some cooler cloths. I have picked the HK P7M8 or M13 depending on which I can find. I that pistol has one of the most innovative designs I've seen in a long time. At first I was a little worried about the 9mm stopping power. I used to be adamently against that cartridge, but recently I have come to appreciate its strengths and not just its weakness. With +p JHPs and good aim, I think it will make a great CCW handgun.

Xavier,

I wanted to ask you a question about the P7 trigger. The triggers on the guns I shot were very light, I was wondering if there are any after market trigger springs available for this gun that can make a little stiffer.

Thanks

[XavierBreath]

ThePaul said:

Xavier,
I wanted to ask you a question about the P7 trigger. The triggers on the guns I shot were very light, I was wondering if there are any after market trigger springs available for this gun that can make a little stiffer.
Thanks

The P7 trigger is so light because the pistol is already cocked. I'm not sure I would want to change anything about the trigger of a carry gun, especially the trigger, whether making it lighter or heavier. The exception is a LEM trigger or a NY trigger on a USP or Glock respectively. These are recognized law enforcement changes.

FWIW, I'm not sure I would want to transition between a USP and a P7 for Summer carry. There is just to much difference between the two pistols and their manual of arms. Consider that the P7 is good enough for Summer, why would it not be good enough for Winter as well? That's exactly why I stuck with the Para for last Winter, instead of transitioning back to my USPc. The P7 is a great carry gun if you are comfortable with the 9mm round. If you are not comfortable with 9mm, then keep looking!

Edited to answer your question...... I'm not aware of any aftermarket springs to increase the trigger weight on a P7.

[klmhq]

My personal preference is accuracy over all (except for concealability) for a CCW. I have considered this for a while and if I can put the bullet where it needs to be to stop a threat, then the only other consideration would be over penetration.

How does this theory affect CCW decisions. I think that a revolver would be as accurate if not more than most automatics at close combat ranges (someone correct me if I'm wrong). Especially considering that we're talking about barrels of 3" or less.

Ammunition capacity isn't much of a consideration either. If you are in a situation where you need 18 rounds of 9mm, you really need to consider why you're in that situation.

At the present time, I'm looking at a S&W 640. With .38 Special, .38 special plus, or .357 magnum ammo, it should be sufficient and quite concealable.

My $0.02 and subject to change as I learn more.

Kevin

[XavierBreath]

Accuracy IS important, no doubt about that.

Consider though, in a lethal encounter, the distance will likely be under 15 feet. More than 15 feet, and your best option is to seek cover or more distance (laterally if possible).

I have a 2 inch .38 spl, a S&W M49. I carry it on occasion. It makes a great pocket gun. I am more accurate with the Para 3 inch 1911 auto though. It's probably the trigger and the pointability of the weapon. This will vary from person to person. Your best bet is to go to a rental range and see what works best for you shooting quickly at to targets at 15 feet. The results can be illuminating. Everyone is different. The revolver might be right for you.

My thought on the bigger bullet is less shots fired to end a given encounter mean less liability in court afterwards.

[Callahan]

When I read these discussions about caliber concerns I get the feeling many who are posting are thinking "one-shot stop," that the confrontation will end by the application of a "mighty caliber" and applying it just one time.

I just don't think it plays out that way. When the situation gets bad you are going to have to fire multiple times and accurately. If you can do that you don't need a cannon.

As somebody once pointed out, a full magazine of .32 caliber is like getting hit by a load of buckshot.

Personally, I've decided after much research that 9mm can be an adequate self-defense round, also .380, and, in some desparate (close) encounters, even .32!

Bigger is better, but frankly it's just not practical to carry around all that firepower sometimes.

[Ricochet]

My BDA .380 holds 13 rounds. It is the right size for comfortable CCW in my estimation. I have confidence in it at 15-20 feet due to many rounds at the range. I just don't see many of these around anymore.

[MLB]

I'll carry the .40 when I have a cover shirt or jacket, and the .380 when concealment is a problem. I've found that I can conceal that little PPK/S in a Milt Sparks tuckable IWB with just a t-shirt (and a good belt.)

[Seraph]

I carry my full size SA Mil Spec 1911, .45ACP, all day everyday. Here in TN, we don't have a CCW. We have a Handgun Carry Permit. I could legally carry my 1911 on my hip, like a gunslinger, but it would get me an unnecessary lengthy interview with Johnny. I carry it concealed in a Galco shoulder rig, with a 2-mag pouch on the offside, and of course I have to wear a cover shirt or jacket. I can't go around in a T-shirt anyway, as it wouldn't look too professional. Carrying this setup is perfectly comfortable for me, all day long. Any infantry veteran knows this is not a heavy load. The choice to go .45 ACP is a choice to go 1911, to me. I chose this combo for the famous dogged reliability of the 1911, and for the relative lethality of the .45 ACP round. I agree with Callahan that it is not wise to count on a one-shot stop. However, I don't think you can count on a two or three-shot stop 100% of the time, either. But I do think two or three big bore slugs will be better than two or three small ones.

[XavierBreath]

Callahan said:

When I read these discussions about caliber concerns I get the feeling many who are posting are thinking "one-shot stop," that the confrontation will end by the application of a "mighty caliber" and applying it just one time.

Yep Cally, it's the age old debate. It's a very personal decision as well. Regardless of the conclusions a person reaches, if they have thought it out, their decision should not be questioned, as it is a decision they have made for themselves.

If I thought I only needed one shot to stop a threat, I would only carry one round. I'd save a lot of weight that way. As it is, I carry a full magazine with one in the chamber, and a spare mag. I'm obviously not expecting a one shot stop (although it would be nice). What I want is a MINIMUM shot stop.

I look at it like this. My attacker will likely be a crackhead. Probably two crackheads. If you took a look at me you would see that most people in their right mind would look for another victim. People with crack or meth in their veins are hard to take down. I have seen the ER results of various calibers of bullets. That moved me towards larger calibers.

For years I argued that two 9mm will get you 294 grains of lead in a wider "damage zone" That's a fair argument, but the downside is that it takes you at least twice as long to get that 294 grains into the BG versus one 230 grain .45ACP. You are also doubling your chance of a bad shot, and he is not going to be standing still for you.

What finally cinched it for me was when I went to Africa. Nobody hunts elephants, lions, leopards or other dangerous game with a .223 depending on shot placement. They use the biggest damned rifle they can handle, and have at least one buddy at hand with another rifle just like it ready to fire if need be.

I view my potential crackhead attacker like I would a very dangerous animal. I do not intend to try to scare him off with multiple rounds flying everywhere. I expect him to be moving. I expect him to be fast. I expect to be surprised. I expect to have less than three seconds from the time I recognize a lethal threat to the time I must be engaging it. I'll be shooting center mass. I want the biggest bullet that will bruise the most tissue and set up the largest shock wave possible. I want my attacker to be down as quickly and as expeditiously as possible. I'm not even thinking of a one shot stop, It would be nice, but by the time I am assessing the situation, the BG will already have at least two holes, because my first response is a double tap.

That is how I arrived at the .45ACP. I don't expect a one shot stop, and will readily state that nobody should. What a person should do is look at all sides of this issue, and choose what he or she feels is best for them. It's an important decision that should not be taken lightly, because ultimately a person may have to live or die by their choices.

[redneckruss]

I have a really technical reason for carrying the .45 1911. I like it. Any time I can carry a small handgun, I'll find a way to carry my FS 1911.

That said. There are many times that I can't carry a small firearm. When helping out at the church I can't wear a jacket to cover, and awkward positions prohibit subtle carry of anyting you have to put in a waistband or hide under a jacket. And while I never break the law, there are many areas I frequent, where discression is the better part...

For occasions like these, I put my KelTec .380 in my pocket. No prints, no runs, no errors...

[Callahan]

Ricochet, MLB and Red:

I also find the .380 and Kel-Tec carry and conceal easily, especially the K-T.

Ricochet: The Browning .380 is a great looking gun. I've seen many people in gun shops admire them, especially with the stainless steel and walnut grips. The Browning really stands out in the crowd. (Then they see the price and move on... ;D)

[Callahan]

XB:

Yeah, isn't the rule that if you are hunting dangerous game in Africa the caliber had to be 400 or better? Kind like pistols in the U.S. -- it better start with a 4! I think the only folks who use smaller calibers to hunt dangerous game in Africa are poachers who tend you use multiple AKs to bring them down.

I shot a deer with a .223 once and will never do it again. It was not a clean kill. I prefer keeping the minimum at .25-06 or more, preferably .270 or 30-06. That's just a personal thing, though. It just did not work out for me.

Probably on of those would be best for a charging crackhead, but I can't conceal them either! I agree with you, if you are only going to have a second or two to get off a shot it would be much better to have that shot be the largest caliber available.

What brand and load of .45 do you use?

[XavierBreath]

I like the 230 grain Federal HydraShok. My rationale is that the police where I live use HydraShok ammo, hence it's a "police round". I'm sure there are other more effective types of ammo available, along the lines of MagSafe and CorBon, but again, it's the inevitable grand jury and civil suits afterwards that influence my decision.

Yep, on one hand, the biggest bullet I can shoot, on the other hand not a fragmentery/incinderary round..... I figure a couple of HydraShoks won't be questioned to much, since the police use the same.

[Data]

I am able to conceal my Sig P239 247. I push-mowed the yard in 80 degree weather with only a t-shirt and light tan shorts today without any problems, discomfort, printing, etc. Im wearing it fight now with kacki pants and an untucked plaid button down shirt and had almost forgot I had it on till I started typing this.

When wearing while working around the house or just hanging out around the house I dont carry the extra mag or even my wallet or keys...making it even more comfortable.

When out in public its easy to carry with a nursing equipment pocket holder in my left pocket and the holder can secure extra mag or two, a can of pepper spray, and a tac light if need be...the holder keeps stuff from falling out of loose fitting pockets while sitting. To round out things I clip a cell phone to my weak side and even have hands free speaker system in my truck in case I ever need 911 while driving fast etc.

I like it so much I just ordered some Trijicons for it....hopefully have them on this weekend.

Xavier,

With any commercially available self-defense ammo couldnt you just tell a jury that "This is what the guy at the gun store recommended....he said it was safer because the hollow tip keeps it from going through an attacker and hitting an innocent victim. I wanted to be safe so I purchased it at his recommendation"

[XavierBreath]

Data said:

Xavier,
With any commercially available self-defense ammo couldnt you just tell a jury that "This is what the guy at the gun store recommended....he said it was safer because the hollow tip keeps it from going through an attacker and hitting an innocent victim. I wanted to be safe so I purchased it at his recommendation"

Yep,
You could probably say that, and then subpeona the gunstore emplyee as a witness and hope he will not destroy your case under cross examination. You had better call him as a witness, because youyr opposition will certainly call him if that's your defense.

One thing is for certain though, if your arresting officer, and every other policeman on the force carries the same bullets, the "extra deadly' bullet game is difficult to play.

Actually, here in Louisiana saying" Well, I wanted to kill him quick, I didn't want to see him suffer" would probably suffice. About a year ago a fellow who got robbed immediately took his .357 magnum out back to target practice prior to notifying police. It was a sheer coincidence that the robbers escaped out back as well.