Detail Stripping a 1911

[TBT]

I just tried wiggling the safety toward the end of the grip safety making sure that my hand was off the grip safety. Nothing. Not a budge.

I also tried getting a smallish screwdriver under there and prying it just a little (very little) and nothing as well.

If I've tried everything the only thing that I can think to do is send it out to either Smith and Wesson or a gunsmith. They don't recommend detail stripping though and I'm not sure they (SW) would be of much help. Might have to find a gunsmith to try and figure it out. I really didn't want to do that but short of drilling the parts out muself and replacing them I don't know what else I can do. And drilling them out I'm not sure I could do that without damaging the frame.

Heh. What a day.

[TBT]

admin said:

tbt said:

Could something be amiss with the drop safety (series 80/swartz ... not sure which one it has or if maybe its even its own design)?

The Kimbers are more known for the Swartz safeties these days, and it's just a small bar located on the right inside of the frame which the grip safety depresses. Colt once used the Swartz safety in one of their earlier pistols but discontinued it's use. The Series 80 belongs to Colt, and is not only a drop safety but one which remains activated after the grip safety is depressed.

The Smith has a little magnatized bar type deal on the right side of the frame that sits in there and pushes up into the slide when the grip safety is engaged. Is that the swartz? Not sure off the top of my head what holds it in there (the thumb safe?) but some pin goes through it.

["DoubleAction"]

TBT; Sounds to me like the Swartz safety. The pin presses against a plunger, which allows the firing pin to pass through the breech face.
For some reason a part of the thumb safety appears to be binding with something, which is preventing it from being removed. Whether it is clearing the locking slot with the frame, I cannot tell without seeing it for myself.
I found it necessary to pry a few off because of other binding issues, after the slot was cleared. Some beavertail safeties are some tight against the frame, and the holes are channeled with such tight tolerances to that of the thumb safety bar, this makes removable difficult when nothing else seems to be wrong.
Anyone worth two grains of salt in experience on the 1911 can find this problem out with a hands on inspection, and it should not take but a minute to look at. Just tell him you want the Thumb Safety removed and put back in; this can be done without even removing the grips.
I do not want your pistol messed up if it seems to already be working properly.

[TBT]

Well, it works great. I just took it out on the back deck and blew the be-jesus out of another apple. Thought that maybe the gun going off might dislodge whatever it was binding on. No such luck. Guess I have to find a smith in the area to see if he can figure it out. Thanks DA. I'll let you know when I do this. Not sure when I'll have the chance to take it down to a smith.

["DoubleAction"]

TBT; The most you can ask of this pistol is that it shoots everytime you want it to, and hits what you expect it to hit; Other than that, everything else is optional.

[TBT]

Yep. And I have really taken to this gun. I've bought a few guns since I came here looking for advise on the Ultra Carry and none have really grabbed me like this one. I love it.

Just wish I knew what the heck was holding up in there. I mean, whatever it is, it doesn't effect function ... it only effects being able to detail strip the gun. Its still a failure though and needs to be addressed. I need to know why this is happening.

A buddy of mine called the other day and recommended a friend that he went to school with that has his own gunsmithing business. I guess he has a degree and everything from some school so I guess I'm going to seek him out and give him a shot. Maybe he can figure this out and maybe even become my gunsmith for future needs.

Guy's name is Bruno. I thought that was funny. I've never known a Bruno.

["DoubleAction"]

TBT; I doubt if it's anything serious, if it was, it would probably affect the function. Still; I like to inspect the lockwork of my 1911s, as well as making sure the components are properly lubricated or polished.
I once accepted all handguns as they came from the factory, until I began having a few little problems arise. It was afterwards when I began pondering thoughts of any options. Since then, I have went a little over board on excercising some options.
There are still many handguns that I own, in their original factory condition, which rank as the best guns I am most proudest of.

[TBT]

Now that I know how to detail strip a 1911 I want to be able to do it. There was a lot of crud in that Smith so I can't even imagine what the insides might look like after 5000 or so rounds without a detail strip.

I have a couple of other questions I can pose to you while I'm stuck waiting to get the gun to a Smith though ,,,

1 - Why do I need a tool to restake the plunger tube? I've been looking at that and it looks like you should just be able to give it a squeeze with a pair of vice grips. Just yank the old one off with pliers and then crimp the new one on with grips. You would think anyway.

2 - I don't like the grip safety on the smith after handling it for a while. I want to replace it. When it is said that the frame needs to be "cut" what do they mean? How hard is that? What about Wilson's drop in grip safety? Is that as good?

["DoubleAction"]

TBT; About the Grip Safety on your S&W 1911. The one on it should be from Wilsom Combat already. Some years ago Beavertail grip safeties were one of many custom modifications incorporated into the 1911 by pistolsmiths. Most pistolsmiths either installed one of their own design, or a design from another.
On the Colt Government Model, the grip tangs on the back strap were quite long, which prevented the hand's grip from being place high in relationship to the bore. Those who placed their grip high would often get hammer bite or a blister on the web of their hand from the down sweeping factory grip safety.
Modifying the pistol's backstrap, for the installation of a high sweeping beavertail grip safety, required grinding off a large portion of the grip tangs and back strap which some refer to cutting the frame.
I've used the King's Drop in, and when the Wilson came out I bought into their's because of the hammer drop slot. I also use the Ed Brown High Ride, with the memory groove, and the Wilson safeties on my CQB pistols. I prefer a smooth polished surface on my grip, which reduces abrasion on the web of my hand; some parkerized finishes are like sandpaper to the this area. I also prefer the Ed Brown High Ride safety if I'm taking the trouble to grind off the government tangs.
The drop ins work very good on those pistols with the shorter grip tangs; mostly those Colts with the factory installed Commander hammers. The placement on the grip with the drop ins, with these shorter tangs, are not much different than what I get with my CQBs.

The Plunger Tube

TBT; The plunger tube stakes are much like rivets, which spred after being placed in the frame. Brownell's has a tool which is a set of vise grips, but with a pointed rivet spredder added to one of the jaws. It also has a steel block, which goes over the plunger tube, and an insert rod, to prevent crushing the tube when applying pressure when spredding the rivets on the inside of the frame. Because it is Brownell's; They offer complete written and illustrated instructions on how to use this tool, which comes with the tool.

[TBT]

Thanks for the info on the plunger tube. I knew I needed the tool, just didn't know why.

Are you sure that the grip on the SW1911 is a Wilson? I thought it was a Chip McCormick but I didn't get any literature that tells me one way or the other what make is what for the controls. I know the Smiths come with McCormick and Wilson parts, but I wasn't sure what was what.

My main issue with the grip safety is a bit trivial I must admit. Its slightly off-color. Not a good black. There is almost a brownish cast to it. I have thought about maybe getting some spray n' bake finish from Brownells for it but I'm not sure how good that stuff is.

I've also been thinking of changing the fire controls all over to stainless instead of the offset black. That would include switching the grip safety, slide catch/release, and thumb safety. Maybe even the hammer? How much fitting and tinkering would this be to switch that stuff over?

The gun works great and maybe I shouldn't be touching it but something in me wants to. I have a vision of doing the "TA Treatment" to the slide and frame and switching the controls to stainless. I might even look into a checkering tool of some sort.

["DoubleAction"]

TBT; It's funny that you mentioned the blued parts in co-ordination with the stainless frame. When I first did my Satin Nickel Commander, over ten years, I installed a blued grip safety, blued slide stop, blued thumb safety, blued bushing, and blued sights. I later changed to stainless Thumb Safety, Grip Safety, and Slide Stop, which I glass beaded to a matt finish for the Satin Finish on the pistol.
I heard or read somewhere in regards to the grip safety of the S&W being that of a Wilson. Best thing to do is call S&W or Wilson, and find out about it. The grip safety is one part you want exactly to the one you already have. The Thumb Safety and Slide Stop, or even the Mainspring Housing, requires only internal fitting if any. You will have to fit the newer grip safety for the trigger engagment, and the Thumb Safety to the Sear.
These little things were the very first things which I learned to do myself, which saved alot of time and money.

[TBT]

Are these fittings your talking about novice things then? Things that I won't mess up lol?

["DoubleAction"]

TBT; The only thing you can screw up on a drop in beavertail, if you already know how to diassemble, reassemble, and know how the parts function, is the beavertail; Same goes for the Thumb Safety. The average cost of a drop in Beavertail ranges from $30 to $40 dollars. I know of a gunsmith who charges $100. to install these three items, with a three day wait, with a location out in the middle of nowhere.
I do it because I have nobody else, and if I did bother to look, I would spend as much money to work up a Colt as it would be to go ahead and buy something like the Wilson CQB. I also like to work on these pistols when the opportunity arises.
I've added up custom pistolsmith charges on the 1911, and it is very easy to run up a tab of over $2,000. on a customer supplied pistol. Trigger Jobs are alright, but I prefer to put together my own components, which costs well over $100. total for an EGW Sear, a Nowlin Hammer, a trigger, and a few other items.
If I were to have a barrel installed, I would send it off to Irv Stone; I hear he is the best barrel man in the business.
Sending a pistol to one smith for one thing, then to another for something else, and then another, is something people like Wilson refuses to participate in. They will not work on a pistol after it's been touched by someone else; hence the reasoning in getting all the work on the pistol, and furnishing their parts for it.

[TBT]

I don't think there are too many pistol smiths out there that will work on a Smith and Wesson 1911. At least not the custom smiths that do the serious custom work. Either SW isn't yet on their approved model list (which usually consists of Colt, Springers, Kimber, Norinco etc.) or they outright say no because they wont do any work on a 1911 that sports an external extractor. Heck, I don't think Wilson will work on anything unless its a series 70 but I could be wrong.

["DoubleAction"]

TBT; I'm pretty sure that the External Extractor on the S&W 1911 is a Wilson Combat part.

[TBT]

Really? Its not something that they sell, just something that they make for Smith and Wesson? I can't remember seeing an external extractor for sale on their site.

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Don't need a gunsmith anymore DA. Got the gun apart and back together again 3 times tonight. Seems pretty easy now but I had to do things out of order to get it apart. I had to have the mainspring housing off before I could get the thumb safety off. Any idea why I would have to do things out of order in order for it to work?

I mean, I was pretty sure thats how I got it locked up the last time when I originally had the problem of getting it back together so I didn't want to do this again, but tonight I said to hell with it and did it anyway. Came right apart once I had the mainspring housing out.

Why though? Could that be a sign that something is wrong or is it maybe just the way that the Smith 1911's are?

["DoubleAction"]

TBT; When you reassemble the pistol, do you install the thumb safety before or after the mainspring housing?

Look at the Wilson Combat KZ-45 TCP; This is the polymer frame Wilson pistol with the external extractor. I don't see the part listed in their catalog either but I would think they would sell one as a replacement part to their own pistol or maybe the S&W.

Edited To Add: TBT; If you want to see what is causing the trouble with your thumb safety, Next time you assemble the pistol leave the grip safety off.
Install the Mainspring Housing, with the Hammer forward, leave the grip safety off, pin the mainspring housing, cock the hammer, and then install the thumb safety. You will see why the thumb safety is not going in or why it is not coming out. This is how I fit a new thumb safety to the sear, by removing the grip safety from the assembled frame, to where I can see the sear and thumb safety engagement.

[TBT]

DA, the only way that I have found to get the pistol back together is to install the mainspring housing first. I have to install that as well as the hammer assembly. Then I put in the thumb safety and its tight, but it goes in fine.

["DoubleAction"]

tbt said:

DA, the only way that I have found to get the pistol back together is to install the mainspring housing first. I have to install that as well as the hammer assembly. Then I put in the thumb safety and its tight, but it goes in fine.

TBT; If you're putting the thumb safety in after the mainspring housing, which is the correct method of assembly, the thumb safety should also be removed before mainspring housing in the same reversed order from that of assembly.
I am thinking the thumb safety engagment to the sear is too tight. You can see the contact point to the sear on the image I provided, where the arrow is pointing.
Checking the thumb safety engagement to the sear, with the grip safety removed, should also have the plunger spring removed as well during this inspection.
It was difficult to discuss this at a time when you could not remove your thumb safety and grip safety; It is now possible to see the problem.

[TBT]

I see the contact point in your picture DA ... but I'm not sure what I should be looking for to check for a problem.